tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-371457322023-11-15T06:13:23.679-08:00Marian TimesFocus on the Medjugorje apparitions and the Catholic Church in the Bosnia Herzegovina region. Other Catholic items of general interest.Paul Baylishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03608868311681288585noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37145732.post-41685180959652591292006-11-29T02:11:00.001-08:002006-12-16T16:29:43.251-08:00Medjugorje - The Objections of Ratko Peric (Part II)<blockquote><em>Even though he had informed the Pope and the Holy See on many occasions regarding the diverse opinions regarding Medjugorje, the bishop felt it was necessary to establish a diocesan commission in order to study the events.</em> </blockquote><br />This differs vastly from other reports that state that the Bishop only formed the commission after receiving pressure from all sides to do so. Who’s telling the truth?<br /><br />The First Church Commission (1982 - 1984)<br />Bishop Žanić established the first Commission on 11 January 1982, which worked until 1984 (O. P., p. 43). It was comprised of four theologians, 2 diocesan priests and 2 religious.<br /><br /><em><blockquote>The Commission hadn’t even gathered yet when on 14 January 1982 something happened that marked the bishop’s position once and for all. That day, three of the “seers” came to Mostar with the “Madonna’s” message that the bishop, regarding the famous Herzegovinian Affair acted too hastily, because he sought the removal of two Franciscan associate pastors who were causing problems in Mostar. The bishop, who during his lifetime venerated the Madonna with numerous devotions and pilgrimages, upon hearing that the phenomenon in Medjugorje was accusing him of irreligious disorder in reference to the parishes; that it didn’t recognize in him a faithful son of the Church and the Madonna, the Mother of the Church, to whom a year earlier in September 1980, the Cathedral church of Mostar was consecrated; that the phenomenon was defending disobedient religious friars who were obstructing the normal functioning of the Cathedral, began to look with suspicion upon the “messages” and the “apparitions” in Medjugorje.</blockquote></em>What is very interesting is that we have not heard any defence from the Bishops of Mostar to Our Lady’s allegations, except platitudes relating to the Bishop’s frequent veneration or Our Lady and pilgrimages to other Marian shrines, as if this somehow relieves him of the accusations leveled against him.<br /><br />His lack of defence is not surprising, however, as we know that subsequently the Vatican indeed found that Vego and Prusina were not guilty of any wrongdoing and that Bishop Zanic’s actions were contrary to Cannon Law. Case closed! Mary was right!<br /><br /><em><blockquote>Despite this, the Commission began its work. Great sign. The Commission held three conversations with the “seers”. In 1982, the third meeting brought some results.</blockquote></em><br />This statement “the third meeting brought some results” suggests the kind of approach taken by the Bishop. “Results” here, for the Bishop, seems to be in the form of "anomalies”, i.e. something with which to <em>condemn</em> the apparitions. This lack of objectivity characterized the Bishop’s investigations all the way through, resulting in the defensiveness of the visionaries, the Franciscans and, finally, he wore down the patience of the Vatican itself, who removed the matter from his hands.<br /><br /><blockquote><em>The Response to the Holy See.<br />In November 1983, the Congregation for theDoctrine of the Faith asked the bishop if the Commission has come to some conclusions. Bishop Žanić wrote a study on Medjugorje and the Herzegovinian Affair, which he sent to Cardinal Josef Ratzinger. In the conclusion the bishop puts forth the question of the “apparitions”:<br /><br />Are they from God? - The “Madonna” of Medjugorje has brought more disorder and disarray here than there was earlier! Hence he doesn’t see how he can accept this as coming from God</em>.</blockquote>Disorder to one person is not always so to others. For example, it must be very “disordering” for Bishop Zanic to have accusations leveled at him by the Virgin Mary. Others would consider that justice had been done and that a semblance of order had thus returned.<br /><br /><em><blockquote>Is it from the devil? - He has difficulty accepting this hypothesis as well, even though the thought has crossed his mind.</blockquote></em>It is very good to see that the Bishop ruled out the diabolical.<br /><br /><em><blockquote>Is it all a hoax? – From the outset, one can notice that the children have sometimes lied. At times it’s clear that what they say is what they have heard from the Franciscans, especially regarding the “Herzegovinian Affair”. The bishop goes on to say that he awaits the judgement of the Commission and the cessation of the “apparitions”. The bishop waited 17 years and he saw the Madonna in heaven on 11 January 2000 (the day of his death) before seeing the “visions” of Medjugorje cease.</blockquote></em>The Vatican didn’t agree with his findings.<br /><br /><em><blockquote>The Second extended Commission (1984 - 1986).<br />In 1984 bishop Žanić decided to extend the first Commission.</blockquote></em>It was not his own decision. The lack of application during the first commission led the then Bishop’s Commission of Yugoslavia to express a desire that the matter be taken more seriously. This resulted in an expanded investigative team, although Bishop Zanic kept the initiative by including members who had already expressed their lack of belief in the visions.<br /><br /><em><blockquote>There were 15 members in the Second Commission: 12 priests and 3 medicalexperts. They held seven meetings in all. The first was in Mostar in March 1984, and the seventh in the same city in May 1986, during which the Commission completed its work. The members of the Commission voted on the following conclusion: Non constat de supernaturalitate (11 voted ‘for’, 2 ‘against’, 1 accepted ‘in nucleo’, and 1 abstained). The Commission prepared a draft “Declaration” in which were listed the “unacceptable assertions” and “bizarre declarations”, attributed to the curious phenomenon.</blockquote></em>These have all been discussed in detail previously in this book.<br /><br /><em><blockquote>The Commission also stated that further investigations were not necessary nor the delaying of the official judgement of the Church.</blockquote></em>Alarm bells should have been ringing in the Vatican upon hearing this and, certainly it appears this was the case.<br /><br /><em><blockquote>In August of 1993, bishop Žanić handed over the administration of the diocese to his successor who continued his work at a swift pace.</blockquote></em>Peric grossly euphamizes the actual situation, which was that the Vatican declined to accept the Bishop’s pronouncements and handed the matter to a third commission which it believed would perform more effectively.<br /><br /><em><blockquote><em>The Interventions of the Holy See<br /><br />The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has intervened four times through two of its Secretaries, while the Prefect, Cardinal Ratzinger, also made an important intervention.<br /></em></blockquote></em><br />We assume Bishop Peric is referring to the intervention that removed the right to pronounce on the visions away from Bishop Zanic and placed it in the hands of the Yugoslav Bishops’ Conference.<br /><br /><blockquote><em>In 1985, Msgr. Alberto Bovone notified the Secretary of the Bishops’ Conference of Italy not to organize official pilgrimages to Medjugorje.</em> </blockquote>“Official pilgrimages”, as applied to this situation, means pilgrimages that endorse the visions as authentic, while the Vatican itself has not yet confirmed the visions as authentic. Pilgrims can still travel in large groups and be accompanied by a priest. Pilgrims will also receive full pastoral care during their pilgrimages, which means they will able to receive all the Church sacraments in Medjugorje during their pilgrimage there.<br /><br /><blockquote><em>In 1995, Msgr. Tarcisio Bertone wrote to the bishop of Langres, Msgr. Leon Taverdet, and repeated the same to Msgr. Lucien Daloz of Besançon, France, who were interested in knowing the position of the Holy See on Medjugorje.</em> </blockquote><p>Bishop Peric doesn’t elaborate further on this intervention. I have previously described it earlier in this book and repeat it here. As well as clarifying the position of the Church as regards whether pilgrimages are still allowed, the intervention also made the following comment:<br /><br />“What Bishop Peric said in his letter to the Secretary General of "Famille Chretienne", declaring: "My conviction and my position is not only 'non constat de supernaturalitate,' but likewise, 'constat de non supernaturalitate' of the apparitions or revelations in Medjugorje", should be considered the expression of the personal conviction of the Bishop of Mostar which he has the right to express as Ordinary of the place, but which is and remains his personal opinion”<br /><br />This is a strong statement of the Vatican’s views of the work of Bishop Zanic’s two commissions. It rejected the conclusions that there is nothing going on in Medjugorje and continues to distance itself from these conclusions. </p><em><em><blockquote><em><em></em></em></blockquote><blockquote></blockquote><blockquote>Finally, in 1998, the same Secretary wrote to Msgr. Gilbert Aubry, bishop of Reunion. All these letters emphasized that pilgrimages, whether private or public, are not allowed if they presuppose the authenticity of the apparitions, since this would be in contradiction to the declaration of the Bishops’ Conference of Yugoslavia.</blockquote><p></em></em>Certainly, this is pure common sense and very few people on either side has any issues with it.<br /><br /></p><blockquote><em>Ratzinger’s frei erfunden:<br />In 1998, when a certain German gathered various statements which were supposedly made by the Holy Father and the Cardinal Prefect, and forwarded them to the Vatican in the form of a memorandum, the Cardinal responded in writing on 22 July 1998: “The only thing I can say regarding statements on Medjugorje ascribed to the Holy Father and myself is that they are complete invention” - freierfunden - (O. P., p. 283).<br /></em></blockquote><p>You would need to call a good number of highly respected Cardinals and Bishops liars to support this. We do not know which statements are specifically referred to, nor exactly how many statements were presented. Many dozens of statements were made by Pope John Paul II, Cardinal Ratzinger and other high-ranking officials. Perhaps one of the most telling statements by Cardinal Ratzinger was in the form of an action – i.e. to reject the conclusions of Bishop Zanic’s investigations into the apparitions and the remove from the Bishop his right to judge on the authenticity of the visions because of his unfounded objections.<br /><br />Below is a long list of statements and actions that have been claimed to support tacit Vatican approval of Medjugorje. Included in the list are some comments and testimonies by various Bishops and Cardinals. It would be extremely difficult to refute all of them, particular newspaper articles in which John Paul is photographed handing an official letter of support and gratitude to Father Jozo for the work he has done in Medjugorje. </p><ul><li><strong>An extract</strong> from one of Pope John Paul II's letters to his friends Zofia and Marek Skmarnicki of Krakow (Dec 8, 1992. Source http://www.medjugorjenews-nz.org/42.pdf): "I thank Mrs. Zofia for everything concerning medjugorje. I, too, go there every day as a pilgrim in my prayers: I unite in my prayers with all those who pray there or receive a calling for prayer from there. Today we have understood this calling for prayer from there. Today we have understood this calling better. I rejoice that our time is not lacking people of prayer and apostles."<br /><br /><br /></li><li>Cardinal Frantizek Tomasek, the late archbishop of Prague and former Communist concentration camp inmate, said Medjugorje "fills me with a great inner joy, fills me with a great inner power." In a 1988 interview with Medjugorge Gebetsaktion, he said, "Personally, I am convinced that Medjugorje is the continuation of Lourdes and Fatima. Step by step, the Immaculate Heart of Mary will triumph. And I am also deeply convinced that Medjugorje is a sign for this."<br /><br /></li><li><strong>From Sister</strong> Emmanuel's Medjugorje Report 15 July, 2001<br />Bishop Denis Croteau of the Canadian Northwest Territories, went to Medjugorje last April. Before leaving from Medjugorje, he shared his amazing testimony with his fellow pilgrims:I came to Medjugorje somewhat like a certain Mgr Paolo Hnilica, who visited Pope John-Paul II on his return from Russia in March 1984. The Pope asked him, "Paolo, have you been to Medjugorje yet?" "No, I haven't, Your Holiness." "What, you haven't?" "No, the Vatican advised me against doing so." The Pope gestured as if to say, "don't worry," then added: "Go incognito, then report back to me.<br /><br /></li><li><strong>From Sister</strong> Emmanuel's Medjugorje Report 15 May, 1999<br />On April 28, Father Schoffberger and I were warmly received by Cardinal Schonborn of Vienna. During our conversation, we brought up the subject of Medjugorje. Among various positive things I also wanted to share with the Cardinal my sadness about the wave of unacceptable slanderous reports against several witnesses of Medjugorje, even by so called 'Catholic media', copied out by people who, for the most part, have never personally met the visionaries nor the local priests. The Cardinal was not taken in by these old methods used in the East to destroy the good name of a priest who bothers the 'regime'. After having listened calmly to me, the Cardinal said, " Do you know, Sister, I invited Fr Jozo Zovko to speak in my Cathedral two years ago?" "Yes, I remember well ! (The meeting took place on September 26, 1997)". And, without any further comment, he summed up his innermost thoughts on the matter: "Would you please tell Father Jozo that I invite him once again to speak in my Cathedral!"<br /><br /></li><li><strong>Saturday Evening</strong>, August 24, 2002, Zagreb Daily Newspaper, Headline Reads: "A Surprising Gesture From the Vatican. The Pope Thanks Father Jozo for Medjugorje!". Front page shows JPII together with Father Jozo. The cover photo was taken when the Holy Father welcomed Fr. Jozo in 1992, in the midst of the Bosnian war. At that time the Pope told him: "I am with you, protect Medjugorje! Protect Our Lady's messages!"<br /><br /></li><li><strong>From Sister</strong> Emmanuel's Medjugorje Report 15 October, 2002<br />During a visit to Vicka's home with a few friends the other day, Mario showed us the Apostolic Blessing that Pope John Paul II signed for Vicka, just as he did for Marija and Fr. Jozo (none of the four other visionaries were given this Blessing - at least at that time). We can only celebrate the Holy Father's decision to express his heart felt care for these outstanding witnesses of the Queen of Peace.<br /><br /></li><li><strong>From Sister</strong> Emmanuel's Medjugorje Report 1 September, 2002 Ewa Jurasz, the Polish translator of the Echo of Mary, Queen of Peace, is taking part in the retreat given in Medjugorje for all the translators of the Echo in these days. When she heard the news about Fr. Jozo and the Pope, she called a couple whom she knows well in Krakow to share it with them, since they have been close friends of the Holy Father for many years: Zofia and Marec Skwarnicki. Marec is a famous poet, a little younger than the Pope, and many people in Poland love him (see PPS). Well, at the other end of the phone, the reaction was good to hear: Zofia started to tell about a dinner that she, Marec and a few other people had with the Pope shortly before the day dedicated to the Laity, in the Jubilee Year 2000. She said it might have been on Saturday, Nov. 25th (she had not yet heard of Fr. Slavko's death). Before dinner, as a gift, she handed to the Pope that beautiful book from Fr. Jozo, called, As She Asks. When the Holy Father saw the book, he exclaimed, "Oh! Jozo!" (not "Fr. Jozo", but "Jozo!"). Then, instead of placing the book in the pile with the other books already given to him, he quickly put it aside and covered it, to make sure it wouldn't be taken away with the rest. After dinner, Mgr Stanislaw Dziwisz, while collecting all that was near the Pope, found the book and picked it up. But the Pope stopped him, took the book back and said before everybody, "No! This one I take with me to my room!"<br /><br /></li><li><strong>In response</strong> to thanks for what he did to free Poland from communism Pope John Paul II has said, "No, not me, but by the works of the Blessed Virgin according to her affirmation at Fatima and Medjugorje." He also said "Medjugorje is the fulfillment and continuation of Fatima."<br /><br /></li><li><strong>From Sister</strong> Emmanuel's Medjugorje Report 15 January, 2003<br />Cardinal Christof Schönborn taught in his cathedral in Vienna last month that Mary today is doing missionary work all over the world: in Argentina, Mexico, Lourdes, Sri Lanka, Medjugorje... Her power to attract people, especially the poor and those in need, is not the work of clerics or some kind of unhealthy cult, as some might have it, he said. Rather, if Mary is there, people come! Even though she never really traveled during her lifetime or preached to anyone, Mary has been a powerful missionary drawing millions to her Son. "On Medjugorje I don't want to express myself from the standpoint of an ecclesiastical judgment. But I only can ascertain one thing again and again, that this is a place where there is obviously an intense mission-station of heaven where thousands upon thousands of human beings find prayer, confession, conversion, reconciliation, healing and deeper faith." (The complete German text of the Cardinal's Dec. 1, 2002 catechesis, titled, "Mary - Mission in Her Heart," can be found on the web<www.kath.net>)<br /><br /></li><li><strong>Pope John</strong> Paul II, in response to a question asked by the Archbishop of Asuncion, La Paz, Bolivia. - Feb. 1995 "Authorise everything that regards Medjugorje!"<br /><br /></li><li><strong>On April</strong> 6th, l995 a Croatian Delegation made an official visit to the Holy Father. The Delegation included the President Tudjman, the Vice President Radic and Cardinal Kuharic from Zagreb. The Pope read his official statement and afterwards, as he often does, he spontaneously added a few words of his own. "I want to go to Split, to Maria Bistrica and to Medjugorje!"<br /><br /></li><li><strong>On April</strong> 2, 1986 reported by Fr. Ivan Dugandzic, OFM, during a meeting with the Holy Father. The Holy Father told him that he follows the events continuously. "You can tell everyone that each day I pray for a happy conclusion to these events."<br /><br /></li><li><strong>From Bishop</strong> Michael D. Pfeifer, OMI, Bishop of San Angelo, Texas, National Catholic Register, April 15,1990: "During my Ad Lumina visit to Rome with the Bishops of Texas in April 1988, I asked our Holy Father his opinion about Medjugorje during the private conversation I had with him. He spoke very favorably about the happenings there, pointing out the good which had been done for people. During the lunch which the Texan bishops later had with the Holy Father, Medjugorje came up for further discussion. Again His Holiness spoke of how it has changed the lives of people who visit it, and said that so far the messages are not contrary to the gospel."<br /><br /></li><li><strong>"Medjugorje is</strong> a great centre of spirituality!" - The Holy Father's comment during a February 1990 conversation, as reported by Bishop Murilo Krieger, Auxiliary Bishop of Florianopolis, Brazil, made prior to His Grace's fourth Medjugorje pilgrimage. The Holy Father assented to Bishop Krieger's request and gave his papal blessing to the visionaries (National Catholic Register, April 29, 1990)<br /><br /></li><li><strong>From Sister</strong> Emmanuel's Medjugorje Report 15 May, 2000<br />On March 25, 1984 this Holy Father, of whom the Gospa said in Medjugorje, "I have chosen for these times," did the consecration in Rome that she had requested at Fatima. Several hours later that same day in Medjugorje she told the children, "Rejoice with me and with my angels, because a part of my plan has already been fulfilled. Many have been converted but many do not want to be converted. Pray!" This was Our Lady's 1000th apparition in Medjugorje! After the Act of Consecration that day the Pope spent 4 hours alone with Bishop Paolo Hnilica, who had just returned from saying a Mass in the Kremlin (Moscow) in unity with the Holy Father's Act of Consecration in Rome. Surprised that his friend hadn't stopped in Medjugorje on his return, the Pope told him, "Medjugorje is the fulfillment and continuation of Fatima!" The Gospa herself confirmed the Holy Father's words seven years later: "Dear children! Today also I invite you to prayer, now as never before, when my plan has begun to be realized... I invite you to renunciation for nine days so that with your help everything I wanted to realize through the secrets I began in Fatima may be fulfilled. I call you, dear children, to grasp the importance of my coming and the seriousness of the situation." (8/25/91). And again from Medjugorje the following month she called, "Help my Immaculate Heart to triumph in this sinful world!" (9/25/91). What else could the fulfillment of Fatima be if not the Triumph of Mary's Immaculate Heart? And this explains why Our Lady's apparitions in Medjugorje are her last on earth. At Fatima she gave THE prophecy about the future: "Nevertheless, in the end my Immaculate Heart will triumph!"<br /><br /></li><li><strong>"If I</strong> wasn't Pope, I'd be in Medjugorje already!" - Reported April 21, 1989 by Bishop Paul Hnilica, SJ, Auxiliary Bishop of Rome, after having been admonished by the Holy Father for not stopping in Medjugorje on his return trip to Rome from a meeting in Moscow on behalf of the Pope.<br /><br /></li><li><strong>The Archbishop</strong> of Paraguay, Mons. Felipe Santiago Bentez, in November of 1994, asked of the Pope if he was right to give approval to the faithful gathering in the spirit of Medjugorje, especially with the priests of Medjugorje. The Holy Father answered: "Approve all that is related to Medjugorje".<br /><br /></li><li><strong>1987, in</strong> a private conversation with the visionary Mirjana Soldo the Pope said: "If I were not pope, I would already be in Medjugorje confessing!"<br /><br /></li><li><strong>Possible miracle</strong> through the intercession of JPII could be the one required for his beatification. The miracle was the cure of a nun who had Parkinson’s disease, incidentally the same disease JPII had. This must hurt those who try to sack Medjugorje and deny John Paul’s obvious love for Medjugorje. Here we have a possible saint-in-the-making, who endorsed Medjugorje throughout his term. Indeed, some of his pronouncements, such as the Year of the Rosary and the consecration of Russia to Mary, have been directly attributed to what has come out of Medjugorje.<br /><br /></li><li><strong>The Pope</strong> said to Fr. Jozo Zovko, the so-called "Disobedient Franciscan", on the 20th July 1992: "Busy yourself with Medjugorje, look after Medjugorje, don't tire. Persevere, be strong, I am with you. Watch over, follow Medjugorje."<br /><br /></li><li><strong>JPII told</strong> Father Jozo Zovko in 2002: "I am with you, protect Medjugorje! Protect Our Lady's messages!"<br /><br /></li><li><strong>Again in</strong> 2002, after coming back from Poland, the Pope wrote from the Vatican to personally thank and send his apostolic blessing to Fr. Jozo Zovko. ''Our Poland is grateful for your every word, for every thing that you have done for us", said the Pope's collaborator, Krystyna Gregorezyk, who personally handed the thank you note to Fr. Jozo in the Siroki Brijeg church.<br /><br /></li><li><strong>In 1995</strong>, Vicka, one of the visionaries, went to Rome as the translator for 350 wounded and crippled Croatian soldiers who had obtained a private audience with the pope. He immediately recognized her and asked, “Are you not Vicka from Medjugorje?” He then prayed over her, blessed her and said: “Pray to the Madonna for me. I pray for you.”<br /><br /></li><li><strong>The Archbishop</strong> Kwangju said to the Pope: "In Korea, in the town of Nadju, Our Lady cries..." The Pope answered "There are Bishops , like in Yugoslavia for example, who are against this...., But it's important to look at the great number of people who are answering her invitations, the amount of conversions... all this is underlined in the Gospel, all these facts have to be seriously investigated." (L`Homme Nouveau, 3. February 1991.)<br /><br /></li><li><strong>Mons. Maurillo</strong> Kreiger, former bishop of Florianopolis (Brazil), visited Medjugorje four times. His first visit was in 1986. He writes as follows: "In 1988, I was with eight other bishops and thirty three priests on spiritual retreat in the Vatican. The Holy Father knew that many of us were going to Medjugorje afterwards. After a private mass with the Pope, before leaving Rome, he said, without having been asked anything, "Pray for me in Medjugorje". On another occasion, I told the Pope "I am going to Medjugorje for the fourth time". He concentrated his thoughts and said, "Medjugorje! Medjugorje! It's the spiritual heart of the world". On the same day I spoke with other Brazilian bishops and the Pope at lunch time and I asked him: "Your holiness, can I tell the visionaries that you send your blessing?" He answered: "Yes! Yes!", and embraced me.<br /><br /></li><li><strong>Italian priest</strong> Fr. Gianni Sgreva - "The following question bothered me: how to establish and lead a community that is connected with a reality such as is Medjugorje where yet 'unapproved apparitions' are taking place? Before founding the community I spoke with Cardinal Ratzinger. He listened to everything attentively and instructed me what to do. For Medjugorje he told me, "Don't you worry about the tree, you worry about the fruits, the vocations, and Medjugorje is our concern." I spoke also with the Holy Father. I talked to him about the community and the vocations connected with the experience of Medjugorje. The Holy Father listened to me, drew close to me and right in my ear said to me, reminding me not to forget: "Don't be concerned about Medjugorje, because I'm thinking about Medjugorje and I pray for its success every day.You be concerned with the vocations and pray for me every day".<br /><br /></li><li><strong>Cardinal Schönborn</strong> told Cardinal Ratzinger that if Medjugorje were closed, he would also have to close the Seminary in Vienna, because the majority of those candidates had received their call to the priesthood through Medjugorje. To this, Cardinal Ratzinger replied: "Closing Medjugorje is not even a question!"<br /><br /></li><li><strong>August 1</strong>, 1989 address by the Pope to a group of Italian physicians dedicated to defending unborn life and to making scientific and medical studies on the apparition, as reported by Bishop Paul Hnilica, SJ, Auxiliary Bishop of Rome: "Today's world has lost its sense of the supernatural, but many are searching for it - and find it in Medjugorje, through prayer, penance and fasting."<br /><br /></li><li><strong>June 1986</strong> response to a group of twelve Italian bishops seeking pastoral advice on people making pilgrimages to Medjugorje. "Let people go to Medjugorje if they convert, pray, confess, do penance and fast."<br /><br /></li><li><strong>In July</strong> '98 in Lourdes, Cardinal Schönborn clearly recalled: "If, as Jesus said, we must judge the tree by its fruit, then I must say that the tree is good... Indeed it is the mission of the shepherds to promote what is growing, to encourage the fruits which are appearing to protect them, if need be, from the dangers which are obviously everywhere... Medjugorje is not invulnerable, this is why it is and will be so important that bishops be very conscientious about their mission as shepherds for Medjugorje so that the obvious fruits that are there might be protected from any possible unfortunate errors". (July 1998, Interview with Dr Max Domej) Every year, spiritual exercises are organized for priests and bishops and that way also the archbishop of Pescara often comes. One time he told me that he asked the Holy Father about these events. "Holy Father what should I do when the faithful from my diocese of Pescara want often to go on pilgrimage to Medjugorje?" "What are they doing?" asked the Holy Father. "They pray and go to Holy Confession." "Well, isn’t that good?" answered the Holy Father. (Brazil's Bishop Martin talking in an interview with the Medjugorje Press Bulletin, Dec. 3, 1997. (source: http://www.birdsongatmidnight.com/SM0905.htm )<br /><br /></li><li><strong>Sister Emmanuel</strong> in her Medjugorje Report 15 May, 1999<br />Let me tell you about an interesting report, already published in the magazine "Maria" (March-April 1999) concerning Medjugorje.<br />(Remember that during Pentecost 1998, Pope Jean-Paul II invited the 'New Communities' to Rome. On this occasion, Cardinal Ratzinger expressed the confidence the Church has in those Communities, founded for the most part after Vatican II. He spoke of a "New Springtime in the Church".) Among these communities, that of "The Beatitudes" is present in Medjugorje. It seeks to be of service to the pilgrims who flock there in great numbers. In order to be well in line with the Church, Dr. Fernand Sanchez, Moderateur General, and Father Francois-Xavier Wallays, a member of the Community's general council, went to Rome on January 12, 1999. They received from the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith its directives in regard to Medjugorje. They were warmly welcomed by the Congregation's Secretary, Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone. Cardinal Ratzinger and Mgr Bertone know the Community of the Beatitudes and how it developed within the Church, after its recognition by Cardinal Coffy, at the time Archbishop of Albi (France) in 1976. Moreover, their presence in Medjugorje having started in 1989, Archbishop Bertone was able to refer to something concrete, i.e 10 years of prayer life and apostolic work of this Community there. The conversation which took place was therefore based on the precise experience of the particular community. It should not be taken as a word systematically given to every Catholic group. Nevertheless, some elements give much light on the Vatican's position towards Medjugorje, and should cut short many rumours. Besides, they can easily be checked in Rome itself.<br />Dr. S. - Can we remain in Medjugorje and continue our apostolate there of Evangelization with the pilgrims ?<br />Arch. B. -Not only can you do so, but you must remain in Medjugorje, at the service of the pilgrims! (The answer was categorical.)<br />Dr. S. - Can we continue to accompany private pilgrimages there?<br />Arch. B. - It is necessary to accompany private pilgrimages! Archbishop Bertone stated, "For the moment, one should consider Medjugorje as a Sanctuary, a Marian shrine, in the same way as Czestochowa." He added: "The Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith has asked the Episcopal Conference of Bosnia Hercegovina to take over the dossier of Medjugorje and start again from the beginning. A team of experts will take part in the work."<br /><br /></li><li><strong>In the</strong> Korean Catholic weekly "Catholic News" from the 11th November 1990 an interview with Mons. Angelo Kim Nam Soo President of BK Korea was published. He had been at a luncheon audience with Pope John Paul II together with six other bishops on Oct 15th that year. Mons. Kim recalls that, "words of praise were addressed to the Pope regarding the change brought about in Eastern Europe. The Pope replied with a smile that he hadn't done much, rather, it was a work of providence from above, and it was carried out in accordance with the promise of Our Lady of Fatima. The Pope continued that the account of Our Lady of Fatima is private revelation and said that it differed fundamentally from public revelation. He also used the example of Our Lady's apparitions in Medjugorje, and commented on how wonderful it is that despite some Bishops opposition, many people visit there, are converted and favored with God's grace. He then smiled." </li></ul><blockquote><em>Conclusion.<br />Not only are these statements ascribed to the Holy Father and<br />Cardinal Ratzinger “complete invention” but the numerous messages of Medjugorje, ascribed to the Madonna are also complete invention.<br /></em></blockquote><p>The Bishop’s credibility is again seriously called into question when sweeping unfounded generalizations are made such as these. </p><blockquote><em>If our faith is considered obsequium rationabile - rational service to God, true and healthy spiritual worship, as it rightfully is (Rm 12:1), then it cannot be any person’s private fantasy or illusion (O. P., p. 84).</em> <blockquote></blockquote><p><em>The Church is competent to say this. In her name, 30 chosen priests and physicians, working together in three Commissions for 10 years, in more than 30 meetings, dutifully and expertly investigated the events of Medjugorje and brought forth their results of study. And not one, but twenty bishops responsibly declared that there exists no proof that the events in Medjugorje concern supernatural apparitions or revelations. </em></p></blockquote><p>It is deliberately misleading to paint their declaration as “We’ve studied it and we just can’t find anything resembling the supernatural”. It is closer to the truth, I feel, to translate the The Zadar Declaration as: “While all indications are that the visions are authentic, it still cannot be outrightly proven (silent adding: “not to mention the many political pressures)”.<br /><br />As in Fatima, Lourdes and practically every other approved apparition, not to mention other processes such as those required for beatification of saints, there must be a period of “wait and see and study”. Generally the Vatican waits until the apparitions are finished before making a final pronouncement, and even then, the pronouncement may not come for a long time. It is wholly wise and prudent. In the case of Medjugorje, the apparitions have still not ceased and there is no immediate sign of their cessation. It is natural and right for the Vatican to be reserved. The statement of the Zadar Declaration is nothing more than a re-iteration of this prudent approval process. </p><p>In order for a vision to be called “supernatural”, it must be shown to be “of God”, i.e. the actions of Satan must be ruled out. This has not been shown to a perfect degree. A great sign was promised by the Virgin that would be “for the atheists”. We gather that this sign will remove all lingering doubt that the visions are “of God”. The Zadar Declaration left the door open for this event to outrightly pronounce what the Yugoslav Bishops conference apparently wanted to pronounce but, because of political machinations, felt unable to outrightly pronounce at the time.<br />We note, at the time of writing, the important news that a new commission is being formed to continue the investigation into the Medjugorje apparitions. </p><blockquote><em>The believer who respects both principles: ratio et fides, adheres to this criterion, convinced that the Church does not deceive. Regarding Medjugorje, there’s a real danger that the Madonna and the Church could be privatized. People could start contriving a Madonna and a Church according to their own taste, perception and deception: by not submitting their reason as believers to the official Magisterium of the Church, but rather forcing the Church to follow and recognize their fantasy. Naïve believers could easily then leave the living<br />fountains of grace in their own parishes to mosey on down to Medjugorje or follow the “seers” around the world, who by<br />the way, thanks to the “apparitions” have good homes and a comfortable existence - at least that’s what the mass-media say.<br /></em></blockquote><p>I personally can’t see this danger, at least not to the extent portrayed by the Bishop. The reason is, funnily enough, in one of the Bishop’s own objections, i.e. as to “banal” messages of the Virgin, which “can be heard in any church”. The Virgin is not some “new improved” Mary. Rather, she is bringing people back to the absolute grass roots of Mass, prayer and the sacraments. Another objection I recently heard from a prominent anti-Medjugorje campaigner, in his arguments supporting a scam, was that this apparition was obviously modeled on Fatima or Lourdes.<br /><br />Father Jozo said: “Our Lady is not coming of her own will or outside of God or His plan; instead she is coming with His permission”. Our Lady constantly points us in the direction of the Church, to the sacraments and the Eucharist. Father Jozo is often called the “Eucharistic Father” because he is forever leading people to the Eucharist as the solution to everything. She once said on September 26, 1982: Concerning the Pope: "Have him consider himself the father of all mankind and not only of Christians”, which appears to be a clear affirmation of the leadership of the Catholic Church in the world.<br /><br />Objectors have to get used to the idea that the Charismatic movement is an integral part of the Catholic Church and it rightfully belongs there. It’s not a movement away from the Church.<br /><br />As for the “good homes” and “comfortable existence”, the inference to corruption and reference to the “mass media” speaks volumes. The visionaries have homes no larger than the average American household, which are used for housing pilgrims, whom they regularly host. People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.<br /></p><blockquote><em>There are at least 6 or 7 religious or quasi-religious communities, just initiating or already established, some of diocesan right, some not, which have arbitrarily been installed in Medjugorje without the permission of the local Diocesan authorities. These communities are more a sign of disobedience than a real charisma of obedience in this Church! There exists a problem in this diocese of Mostar-Duvno which in recent years has practically precipitated into a schism. At least eight Franciscan priests, who have rebelled against the decision of the Holy See to transfer a certain number of parishes administered by the Franciscans to the diocesan priests, have been expelled from the Franciscan Order and suspended ‘a divinis’. In spite of this, they have occupied at least five parishes through force, and continue to exercise sacred functions. They invalidly assist at marriages, hear confessions without canonical faculties and invalidly confer the sacrament of confirmation. Three years ago they even invited a deacon of the Old-Catholic Church who falsely presented himself as a bishop, to preside at a confirmation and he “confirmed” about 800 young people in three parishes. Two of these expelled priests sought after episcopal consecration from Swiss bishop of the Old-Catholic Church, Hans Gerny, yet without any result. So many invalid sacraments, so much disobedience, violence, sacrilege, disorder, irregularities, and not a single “message” from tens of thousands of “apparitions” has been directed towards eliminating these scandals. A very strange thing indeed!</em></blockquote><p>If Bishop Zanic had followed Our Lady’s instructions as well as the wishes of his peers in other parts of the country and ceased his one-sided campaign of destruction, in favour of a reasoned balanced approach to his original investigations, there would be no disorder whatsoever, except the residual disorder that resulted from the first secular Bishop’s planned takeover of parishes from the Franciscans. All disorder has originated from the Diocesan camp, all of it, since 1890. The Franciscans have lived in peace with their parishioners in this region for centuries before the arrival of the first Austrian hard-line Diocesan Bishop. Since then, the Catholic landscape has been a shambles and, even today, the current Bishop of Mostar can scarcely tolerate the presence of the Franciscans. He puts up red tape wherever possible to block initiatives by the Franciscans. We remember well the very first day of Bishop Peric’s inauguration as Bishop of Mostar. He announced that he was going to carve up everything for the Diocesans and that it was all agreed to by the Francisicans. When the Franciscans pointed out that they had indeed NOT agreed, Peric’s response wasn’t to correct himself, but to take away the objecting Franciscan’s Cannon mission and other sanctions. We have seen no end of this strong-arm behaviour since the days of the first secular bishop in the region. It has been one similar Bishop after another. I admire the strength and perseverance of the Franciscans. In my opinion, the Franciscans are justified in trying to work around the red tape and stumbling blocks as best they can, while remaining obedient to the Holy See. And furthermore, I am quite sure the Holy See sympathises with the Franciscans. We have already seen the Vatican clear Vego and Prusina of the charges brought against them by the Bishop of Mostar. And we have seen, instead, the Bishop of Mostar officially found to be acting contrary to Cannon Law. Still, the Franciscans have had very little other official justice to soothe their agonies. In the case of the Vatican being duped by the secular bishops into having parishes handed over, a Holy See representative sympathized, but said there was now little that could be done to overturn the declaration. St. Francis of Assisi would probably praise God for providing such trials to endure for sinners and, indeed, I’m sure many of the Franciscans do adopt this attitude themselves, which could be why the Seculars have gotten away with so much injustice over the years. The passiveness and humility of the Franciscans probably contributed to their being targets for bullying in the very first instance with the arrival of the first European secular Bishops, who came from a background where bishops and cardinals associated with Kings and entered politics.<br /></p><em><blockquote><em>The Church, from the local to supreme level, from the beginning to this very day, has clearly and constantly repeated: Non constat de supernaturalitate! No to pilgrimages that would ascribe a supernatural nature to the apparitions, no shrine of the Madonna, no authentic messages nor revelations, no true visions! This is the state of things today. How will things be tomorrow? We’ll leave them in God’s hands and under Our Lady’s protection! Mostar, February 2004.</em> </blockquote></em><p>The Bishop ends with same subtle deception as he began, placing his faith in the Zadar Declaration as somehow supporting his position that the visions are all completely false. Let me repeat for readers who missed it above: “Non constat de supernaturalitate” does not mean “definitely nothing supernatural is found”. That would be “Constat de non-supernaturalitate”. Rather, it means “It looks like the supernatural, but we just can’t prove it YET”. And to confirm that there is indeed a YET on the end, the Zadar Declaration specifically provides for pastoral care of pilgrims in the meantime as well as specifically stating that the door is left open for future investigations. Indeed, as I have already stated, at the time of writing, there is another commission just formed to continue the investigations. Yes, let us wait and see what the results of the new commission will be. </p><blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><p></p></blockquote><em><blockquote><em><blockquote></em><br /><br /></blockquote></em></blockquote>Paul Baylishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03608868311681288585noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37145732.post-60592806902486046982006-11-29T01:36:00.000-08:002006-11-29T02:11:04.571-08:00Medjugorje - The Objections of Ratko Peric (Part I)Here we list some of the objections of Bishop Ratko Ratko Peric, successor to Bishop Zanic as Bishop of Mostar. These are taken directly from his May 2004 publication “MEĐUGORJE: SECRETS, MESSAGES, VOCATIONS, PRAYERS, CONFESSIONS, COMMISSIONS”. We will not repeat the objections already covered by Bishop Zanic unless there is particular reason.<br /><br /><br /><blockquote><em>All these “messages” of the various interpreters of Medjugorje, are heard every Sunday in churches. For us, the novelty of Medjugorje would be that the “Queen of Peace” on the 25th of each month sends out a special communication with the message: “Thank you children, for responding to my invitation”.</em></blockquote>There is no making the Bishop happy. He would be happier if he found messages that were contradictory to what is found in the Church every Sunday, so that he could more easily renounce the visions.<br /><br /><br /><blockquote><em>The Madonna thanks the “seers” for having the time, for wanting to, and deigning themselves to meet and talk with her. According to these words the “Madonna” is amazed and grateful to the “seers” who have responded to her invitation! This is somewhat like parents thanking their children for being born, or physicians thanking the infirm for seeking their health back! (OgledaloPravde=Mirror of Justice, Mostar, 2001, pp. 249-250).</em><br /></blockquote><br />Again, there is no making the Bishop happy. He would be happier if the Virgin lacked any of the gentleness and humility that she displayed on earth. He would also be happier if the Virgin displayed more of a bossy attitude compelling and ordering the visionaries and the world to follow her precepts. Then he would have more ammunition in calling the visions demonic. It is quite funny, because one prominent anti-Medjugorje journalist once asked me how it is possible that the Virgin could speak so harshly about a Bishop. I reminded him that the Virgin is now the crowned Queen of Heaven, with all Bishops and the Pope as her servants and that, in such a light, we can still see humility in her statements. Even though the warnings was clear, she used words such as “I request…”.<br /><br /><br /><blockquote><em>Of the six “seers” of Medjugorje, none of them have achieved a religious vocation. Three of them mentioned that they were going to enter and two even went on to follow this inexplicable voice, yet with time everything vanished.</em><br /></blockquote><br />It is probably unfair to compare a modern apparition with others at Lourdes and Fatima when discussing lifestyle choices of visionaries. None of the visionaries themselves entered the religious life, but it was not through lack of effort by the Virgin, who expressed her preference that they enter the religious life, though did not compel them to do so.<br /><br />There may not have been any vocations among the visionaries, but this is offset by the huge numbers of vocations among the pilgrims. Cardinal Schönborn told the then Cardinal Ratzinger that if Medjugorje were closed, he would also have to close the Seminary in Vienna, because the majority of those candidates had received their call to the priesthood through Medjugorje.<br /><br /><br /><blockquote><em>There’s something strange in all of this: three “seers” who tried to “enrol” themselves into religious life, who later on dismissed themselves and were happily married, still have regular daily “apparitions”. The other “seers” though, who didn’t enter the religious life, receive an “apparition” only once a year. Can this be considered a reward for those who didn’t enter the religious life? A grace of God.</em><br /></blockquote><br />Should married life be considered somehow lower than religious life? Most married couples would take exception, including Mary and St. Joseph themselves. I’m sure the Bishop has never had to deal with screaming babies or realized the saintly patience required to bring up children while maintaining a healthy spousal relationship. Again, there is no pleasing the Bishop. Many argue that the number one problem in the world today is the “family unit”. All visionaries are happily married, with children, and no signs of marital problems. They are beacons for healthy family living. Thus, God has managed to be glorified despite the fact that none of the visionaries themselves entered the religious life.<br /><br /><blockquote><em>Prayer as a context. Prayer is an important factor in the “apparitions” of Medjugorje. It’s in the context of praying the Our Father that in most cases the “apparitions” begin for the “seers”. They even cease praying so that the “apparition” can be followed for a few minutes. </em><br /></blockquote><br />The Bishop is taking a backward view of prayer as needing to be interrupted in order to cater for a vision. Rather, it is the vision that is being awaited by the visionaries and prayer is the chosen method to spend the time in preparation for the vision. Again, there is no keeping the Bishop happy. Would he perhaps prefer, for example, in the context of the Holy Mass, that the faithful lounge about the aisles chatting to each other rather kneeling and praying in preparation for the opening hymn, at which time they cease prayers and stand up.<br /><br /><br /><blockquote><em>A Message not to pray. On 16 September 1981: “She also told them that they need not pray for themselves, because she has rewarded them in the best fashion. They should pray for others instead” (O. P., p. 111). - The Biblical Madonna will never say that people need not pray for themselves and that the “reward of apparitions” replaces personal prayer. This is false teaching. Even Jesus prayed firstly for himself, then for his apostles and then for the entire world “that all may be one” (Jn 17).<br /></em></blockquote><br />This message was for the visionaries themselves, not necessarily for the rest of the world. The visionaries have a mission to bring others to God. Certainly the rest of us should pray for ourselves. Mary herself has given many other messages which specifically state this. For example, she has often told us to pray for the gift of the Holy Spirit and for peace in our hearts.<br /><br /><br /><blockquote><em>A Message to pray for bishop Žanić. Concerning a prayer-group of Medjugorje “the Madonna has asked that they fast on bread and water twice a week. Three months later we are fasting on bread and water three times a week. The group is offering the majority of their prayers for him (bishop Žanić). We often offer our adoration, rosaries and visits to the place of the apparitions where we pray long into the night for him. God shall look upon our prayers and fasting” (O. P., p. 126). So wrote Fr. Tomislav Vlašić OFM on 8 January 1984. The phenomenon established a prayer-group around Fr. Tomislav Vlašić OFM, who in a letter in 1984 presented himself to the Pope as the one “who through Divine providence guides the seers of Medjugorje” (O. P., p. 56). This group has been praying and fasting just so that the bishop would give in to their hallucinations.<br /></em></blockquote><br />The Bishop against ruins his credibility by taking liberties with his use of loaded language and rash assertions, e.g. "hallucinations". Scientists and psychologists have proven over the course of several intensive investigations that the visionaries are not hallucinating, with all evidence pointing to their actually seeing and talking to something or someone external to themselves.<br /><br />Regarding the prayers and fasting for Bishop Zanic: If we assume the visions are genuine, then prayer and fasting is an appropriate and historical course of action in the event of the “obstacles”. Thus, because of the course of action adopted, we must be inclined to assume that the visions are genuine. If demonic, surely Satan would only need to make a couple of appearances to the Bishop to get him “onside”. It is already certain that the visions are not a hoax, so these are the only two options – genuine or demonic.<br /><br /><br /><blockquote><em>They also built a convent in Medjugorje with close to 100 beds and didn’t even think of asking the bishop for permission to do this. Then the “mystifier” Fr. Vlašić was recently removed from his guiding role in the prayer-group, after having mixed the spiritual with spiritism in Medjugorje during a retreat! </em></blockquote>I am not sure if there was any permission granted for the building of the convent. Again, we see liberties taken in using loaded words. The “spiritism” Peric speaks of is nothing more that the usual Holy Spirit filled charismatic practices that are a legitimate and integral part of the Catholic Church under Vatican II.<br /><br /><br /><em><blockquote><em>He could have but didn’t want to? In an interview in 1993, during the height of the war, the “seer” Jakov said: “The Madonna has asked me today, as every day during these last twelve years, that I pray for peace in the former Yugoslavia. The Virgin convinced me that I could stop the war with my prayers…” (O. P., p. 37). - If this weren’t so naïve, a normal believer would ask himself: if the “seer” was capable of stopping the war in ex-Yugoslavia, then why didn’t he go pray and bring to an end?</em><br /></blockquote></em><br />The war DID come to an end!<br /><br /><blockquote><em>Yet during the war over 2 million people were displaced, over 200,000 were killed, thousands of religious sites and tens of thousands of homes were destroyed, and then the unjust Dayton accord was imposed upon us!</em> </blockquote>Perhaps the war would have ended sooner had not the Bishops of Mostar put off so many people from following Our Lady’s instructions.<br /><br /><blockquote><em>Can prayer be considered proof? There are people within the Church who say: If the people are praying to God, let them then go to Medjugorje, let them make their pilgrimages and pray. It’s better for them to pray than not to pray, better to venerate “the Madonna of Medjugorje” than not to venerate any Madonna at all! For 2000 years now the Church has been teaching and suggesting to the faithful that they pray, fast, do penance, go to confession and convert. She doesn’t prohibit anyone from praying to God where they please. But she doesn’t allow “pilgrimages to the place of the apparitions” to be endorsed in churches from the altar, that have not been accepted as authentic. She does this so that the truth may be separated from falsehood, and true doctrine separated from false doctrine. As if it were really necessary for someone to travel thousands of kilometres from Corea or Ireland to Medjugorje just to pray a rosary or to make a confession. Yet Jesus teaches us to go into your room and pray to your Father in heaven! (Mt 6:6). Do those who say that they have travelled to Medjugorje over thirty times, really prove by saying this that they have “converted”? This could be a real sign that they haven’t converted (O. P., pp. 229-230). A truly converted person would never boast about this but would rather demonstrate it by his life! If the faithful of the parish of St. James’s in Medjugorje sincerely confess their sins and pray, regardless of all the nursery rhyme “apparitions”, they thereby certainly receive the same Divine graces that other believers receive who pray and validly receive the sacraments in Catholic churches throughout the world. The local Church has always held this belief (O. P., pp. 268-269).</em><br /></blockquote><br />Prayer is not the key issue from the perspective of devoted Catholics. We are concerned with non-believers and backsliding believers (the latter Jesus said would be “spewed out”), both of which benefit from the pilgrimage experience. The physician doesn’t come to heal the healthy. Prayer has always been Mary’s first recommendation for believers to maintain a strong relationship with God and for non-believers to begin to establish their new relationships with God.<br /><br />Those who travel to Medjugorje multiple times are drawn by the peace they find there, and they yearn to be a more permanent part of a community that is on fire for God. Many of them bring non-believers with them on subsequent trips and their experience and companionship eases the path to conversion. Medjugorje is the edge of Heaven and who can blame people for wanting to experience it often. These people generally have the time and the resources to spare and you generally find them to be the most constructive of all in their home communitie, organizing prayer groups and pilgrimages and disseminating information to members of their communities. God uses them well!<br /><br />Continued in Part II...Paul Baylishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03608868311681288585noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37145732.post-40501980903061448672006-11-26T16:00:00.000-08:002006-11-26T16:50:48.446-08:00Medjugorje - Media Lies RevealedSatan is having a field day, and it's not in Medjugorje. It's in the media. It's coming from uninformed people. Malachi Martin' s rash, uninformed statement that Medjugorje is a satanic cult has been picked up by trouble-makers and wannabe writers with time on their hands (<a href="http://byzantinesacredart.com/blog/2006/07/medjugorje-satanic-cult.html">see this blog for an example</a> of utter nonsense derived from the comment of Malachi Martin). The Vatican doesn't think it is a Satanic Cult and nor does the original detractor Bishop Pavao Zanic, so who does he think he is to spread his uninformed conclusions.<br /><br />Bishop Zanic got an official warning from his superiors for coming to rash conclusions that affect people's perceptions of Medjugorje. He tried to pass his own opinion off as the official Vatican opinion. The faithful got confused and clarification was requested from the Holy See. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith responded with the following letter to Bishop Gilbert Aubry of Saint Denis clarifying its position on Medjugorje. He received it on June 24th. On the 25th, he spread it to the priests and communities of his diocese (circular # C003) so that they can have the latest statement from Rome and, if necessary, inform the faithful with full knowledge of the facts.<br /><br /><blockquote><p>CONGREGATIO PRO DOCTRINA FIDEI Pr. No 154/81-06419Citta del Vaticano, Palazzo del S. UffizioMay 26, 1998To His Excellency Mons. Gilbert Aubry,Bishop of Saint-Denis de la Reunion</p><p>Excellency:In your letter of January 1, 1998, you submitted to this Dicastery several questions about the position of the Holy See .... Since the division of Yugoslavia into different independent nations it would now pertain to the members of the Episcopal Conference of Bosnia-Hercegovina to eventually reopen the examination of this case, and to make any new pronouncements that might be called for. </p><p>What Bishop Peric said in his letter to the Secretary General of "Famille Chretienne", declaring: "My conviction and my position is not only 'non constat de supernaturalitate' (Ed: Not proven that something supernatural is happening) but likewise, 'constat de non supernaturalitate' (Ed: Proven that there is nothing supernatural happening) of the apparitions or revelations in Medjugorje", should be considered the expression of the personal conviction of the Bishop of Mostar which he has the right to express as Ordinary of the place, but which is and remains his personal opinion.</p><p>Finally, as regards pilgrimages to Medjugorje, which are conducted privately, this Congregation points out that they are permitted on condition that they are not regarded as an authentification of events still taking place and which still call for an examination by the Church.</p><p>I hope that I have replied satisfactorily at least to the principal questions that you have presented to this Dicastery and I beg Your Excellency to accept the expression of my devoted sentiments.</p><p>Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone (Secretary to the "Congregatio", presided over by Cardinal Ratzinger)</p></blockquote><br /><br />Fr. Daniel-Ange (France) summarizes this way:<br /><ul><li>The declarations of the Bishop of Mostar only reflect his personal opinion. Consequently, they are not an official and definitive judgement from the Church.<br /></li><li>One is directed to the declaration of Zadar, which leaves the door open to future investigations.<br /></li><li>In the meanwhile private pilgrimages with pastoral accompaniment for the faithful are permitted.<br /></li><li>A new commission could eventually be named. (Ed: this new commission has begun)<br /></li><li>In the meanwhile, all Catholics may go as pilgrims to Medjugorje<br /></li></ul>If anyone doubts that the media would deliberately smear Medjugorje, then take a look at the following article on Medjugorje.org about the shenanigans of "The Wanderer". This is happening everywhere.<br /><br /><blockquote><p>Source: <a href="http://www.childrenofmedjugorje.com/JozoDefense.htm">http://www.childrenofmedjugorje.com/JozoDefense.htm</a><br />by Denis Nolan:</p><p>A vicious attack against Fr. Jozo Zovko, OFM., and Medjugorje has been launched in the main traditionalist publication in the US, The Wanderer, (November 14, 2002). Many of these false allegations have been refuted long ago and this is just one more example of how the enemies of Medjugorje rely upon disinformation in order to destroy Medjugorje and her Franciscan priests. Highly volatile "flash words" are used so as to indirectly associate Medjugorje with recent scandals in the USA involving clergy, though no facts are given to back up these allegations. Guilt by association, innuendo and slander serve their intended purpose. The Wanderer should be held accountable for such libelous journalism.</p><p>You'd think this time the news editor for The Wanderer would have at least gotten the date right: "the alleged apparitions began in 1979," in light of the fact that several paragraphs later Paul Likoudis quotes: "the apparitions of the blessed Virgin Mary first started in 1981," (p.1).</p><p>In point of fact Likoudis established lack of credibility four years ago with his article, "Film Probes Underside of MEDJUGORJE INDUSTRY," (The Wanderer, March 26, 1998). Now, four years later, the director and producer of that film, the cameraman, the journalists - all of whom Likoudis referred to and quoted throughout his article - testify publicly that everything he reported was false. It was all part of a deliberate campaign to destroy Medjugorje! And Likoudis has the audacity continuing this campaign in the November 14, 2002 The Wanderer! This is criminal. He and the Wanderer should be held accountable! </p><p>There never were any death threats made by the Franciscans of Medjugorje against Jones and others There never was a pedophile ring of Franciscans in Medjugorje! </p><p>The story that was kept alive for two years in the Muslim newsdaily, "The Feril Tribune," - that all money given by pilgrims to the Franciscans in Medjugorje during the war, for refugee aid,was instead used by them for ethnic cleansing of Muslims - was entirely false!</p><p>At the time the acting Provincial for the Hercegovina Province, Fr. Tomislav Pervan, OFM., felt it necessary to answer some of these accusations in an article titled "Campaign Against Medjugorje" in the Croatian weekly "Nedjeljna Dalmacija (April 17, 1998). Likoudis and The Wanderer should be apologizing and printing a retraction instead of continuing their shameless campaign.</p><p>I can just imagine the scenario surrounding Fr. Jozo's speaking engagement at the Basilica of Immaculate Conception in Washington, DC.... The same thing happened several years ago when he was invited to speak at the National Conference of Medjugorje at the University of Notre Dame. Mybishop's fax machine was flooded with faxes from the same number (is it a coincidence that one paragraph from Likoudis' article is exactly the same - word for word - as a paragraph in the fax my bishop received)? The attempt failed. Bishop John M. D'Arcy saw right through what was happening.</p><p>Commenting on the recent The Wanderer article, the Franciscan Provincial in Mostar, Fr. Slavko Soldo, OFM., Fr. Jozo's superior, told me: "It's not true that Fr. Jozo was suspended by his Franciscan general. He is not suspended! He is a priest in good standing with his community!" (Note that the November 14th letter from the Provincial and a November 21st letter of clarification from the Franciscan Vicar General in Rome are posted at <a href="http://www.childrenofmedjugorje.com">www.childrenofmedjugorje.com</a>.) He continued: "And regarding the charges against him, it's interesting that not one of those women has ever sent any of those letters to me. And I'm the first person who should know. Fr. Jozo is responsible to me as far as discipline goes. I find it interesting that neither has the<br />bishop ever sent me a copy of any of those supposed letters. Let me repeat: never have such charges - or anything like them - ever been brought to my attention - and there are none in my office files preceeding my time as Provincial! Of course now they can be invented and sent to me afterwards."</p><p>Fr. Soldo has good reason to be frustrated. Charges of sexual misconduct brought against Fr. Tomislav Vlasic, OFM (who was named Pastor in Medjugorje after Fr. Jozo was sent to prison) spread publicly by the Bishop of Mostar have been refuted countless times by the very woman whose name appears at the end of the letters - who was supposed to have written them and sent them to the bishop. ... she pointed out to him that two letters he had with her name at the end were even written in different handwriting... "I am ready to swear by the Cross in the presence of anybody and everybody that I never disclosed or wrote who the father of the child is." The bishop's response was to ask her to be quiet, and he continued spreading those letters to journalists as authentic! </p><p>(Cf. "At the Sources of Medjugorje: Objections," Daria Klanac, ZIRAL, Hrvatski mladezi bb, Mostar, 1999, p. 39).</p><p>The Holy Father has just recently thanked Fr. Jozo for all that he has done in a signed blessing delivered to Fr. Jozo by Polish pilgrims coming to Medjugojre via Rome and the Vatican. And what is it that Fr. Jozo has done to draw this extraordinary attention and gratitude of the Holy Father except to "protect the children' as heaven asked him to do. The original children were the visionaries when the Communists tried to silence them. It was Fr. Jozo and not the bishop who protected the children. And it is Fr. Jozo and not the Bishop who has continued to "protect the children" of Medjugorje worldwide.</p><p>Soon all will come into the light. And be at peace. These kinds of slanders are exactly the kinds of things that should be expected<br />if Our Lady were really coming to Medjugorje!</p></blockquote>Paul Baylishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03608868311681288585noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37145732.post-88772835275171968902006-11-25T17:48:00.000-08:002006-12-16T17:02:23.194-08:00Medjugorje - Arguments of E Michael Jones (Part II)E Michael Jones' arguments continued, with Editor's comments....<br /><br /><br /><blockquote><em>10. Evidence from other sources close to the seers corroborates Ivan’s testimony. Mirjana once described a vision in which she saw the Virgin Mary appear, only to be replaced by a second virgin, who told her in a different voice, “You see even the devil can come dressed as me.”</em></blockquote>Firstly, that was a lazy misquote from Jones. The virgin didn't say this. And we did not get any “testimony” from Ivan, simply an eyewitness comment taken out of context. Even so, this is far from any type of corroboration except if we are corroborating “seeing something”, which needs no corroboration because people have been saying nothing else since day one. And here we have more misrepresentations regarding Satan’s appearance to Mirjana. Below is the full story as told at Medjugorje.org:<br /><br /><em>"Mirjana related an apparition she had in 1982 which we believe sheds some light on some aspects of Church history. She spoke of an apparition in which satan appeared to her disguised as the Blessed Virgin. Satan asked Mirjana to renounce the Madonna and follow him. That way she could be happy in love and in life. He said that following the Virgin, on the contrary, would only lead to suffering. Mirjana rejected him, and immediately the Virgin appeared and Satan disappeared. Then the Blessed Virgin gave her the following message, in substance: "Excuse me for this, but you must realize that Satan exists. One day he appeared before the throne of God and asked permission to submit the Church to a period of trial. God gave him permission to try the Church for one century. This century is under the power of the devil, but when the secrets confided to you come to pass, his power will be destroyed. Even now he is beginning to lose his power and has become aggressive. He is destroying marriages, creating division among priests and is responsible for obsessions and murder. You must protect yourselves against these things through fasting and prayer, especially community prayer. Carry blessed objects with you. Put them in your house, and restore the use of holy water."</em><br /><br />So, the key question seems to be: can the devil appear in two places at once in the disguise of Mary? Because it seems that Mary appeared while Satan was still there and shooed him away, i.e. they were both in the same space for a brief moment. The other interesting point about this event is that we see what Satan is really like. Before Mary appeared and shooed him off, Satan opened his mouth and out came the things we can immediately recognize as being from Satan. Forget the theories that Satan can be 99% convincing in order to pass on 1% of lies. Most of us believe that God would not test us beyond our ability to reason according to the limits of human ability and knowledge.<br /><br /><blockquote><em>11. The possibility that the seers were seeing a spiritual entity which was not the Blessed Mother was mentioned explicitly the day before our trip to Surmanci by a priest who has been associated with the apparitions for over ten years and during that period has gone from an being avid believer and promoter to a confirmed skeptic. After years of hearing confessions and assembling a library of new age material from penitents, it became clear to him that Medjugorje was a major stop on the New Age circuit.</em> </blockquote>The “assembling a library of new age material” was, in fact, "confiscation". During this period, New Age thinking was prevalent all over the world, so it is no surprise that the philosophies were present in pilgrims. Franciscan priests and nuns regularly asked pilgrims to surrender their new age crystals and books, etc. because they came under the umbrella of “spiritism”, which was not acceptable at Medjugorje.<br /><br /><blockquote><em>Before long, the Blessed Virgin even started talking like a new age guru. The first message to issue from the lips of “Our Lady of Medjugorje” after the bishops’ condemnation was that her devotees should turn “negatives into positives,” a turn of phrase which struck this priest at the time as totally unbiblical, a feeling which received dramatic confirmation when he found exactly the same phrase coming from the lips of New Age guru, Sanaya Roman, “Channel for Orin.” “Or,” the priest remembered, was the Hebrew word for light. The Latin word is Lux, whose genitive is lucis, which is the root of the name light-bearer, or Lucifer. The passage about changing negatives into positives, which Marija Pavlovic cited verbatim as the first message from the Gospa after the bishops’ declaration of April 1991, is the title of Chapter Five of Sanaya Roman’s book, Living with Joy: Keys to Personal Power and Spiritual Transformation (Tiburon, CA: H. J. Kramer, 1986). </em></blockquote>Here is Jones’s latest angle – "Indian Jones and the New Age Guru". Unfortunately, this allegation probably holds the least water of all. As mentioned above, it was about this time that the new age idea was rampant all over the world. However, it is very clear that Mary is anti-new age. We have testimonies from the pilgrims on this subject. These pilgrims testify that they arrived with new age ideas and left without them. On one particular visit, one of the clergy asked if anyone believed in new age crystals as a means of fortune-telling. Quite a few people pulled crystals out of their pockets. They were told to get rid of them, in fact, in some cases, to leave them at the cross of Krzevac. There are many other testimonies, including a man who had been involved in Transcendental Meditation (TM) and, while in St James Church, saw a big black bug crawling across his mind’s eye. Believing he had a demon, he went to a priest in Medjugorje who referred him to an exorcist who was there. The exorcist asked the demon to reveal its name and the reply was in the form of a “mantra” that the man had used during his meditation. The man had unwittingly attracted a demon related to lust through his involvement in TM. The demon was expelled. The biggest supporting argument Jones can raise in support of his proposition that Medjugorje is New Age is Our Lady’s comment that we should turn the negatives into positives. I mean, this is laughable. What about all the saints who turned the “negatives” of suffering into positives for those they suffered for. Jesus kissed His cross, knowing that the negativity associated with His passion would bring unbelievable positive benefits for mankind. It is more unbiblical if one <em>doesn’t</em> turn the negative into positive, for we know that despair is a mortal sin because it rules out the power and mercy of God. New Age is a big no-no at Medjugorje. Case closed!<br /><br /><blockquote><em>12. I begin to descry a third possibility, based on its geographical and historical context and their relationship to the massacres at Surmanci just on the other side of apparition hill. The “seers” saw a ghost. Ghosts, to begin with, are psychological, whereas demons are ontological. Demons are actual beings; they are pure spirits, or angels who have chosen to rebel against God and live in a state of eternal separation from Him. Their only consolation comes from making other rational creatures, who were created to share happiness withGod, share their misery instead. Ghosts, on the other hand, are a function of the mind which beholds them. They are traditionally seen as the souls of men who have not gone to hell but rather to purgatory, from whence they escape periodically to admonish the living about some still unfinished business.</em> </blockquote>I’m laughing literally. This is a huge stretch. Why are there no other ghosts except Mary and, on one occasion, Satan? It takes no account of the repetitive vision of the same Marian apparition every day for 25 years. Surely, there would be a mass of entities rising from the graves of Surmanic, with no logical pattern and no clear messages, probably just a lot of moaning and dragging of chains. Furthermore, it doesn’t tie in the other phenomenon, miracles and healings for example. I don’t want to dignify it any more than that, but I’ve added even more of it below because I want to show something else.<br /><br /><blockquote><em>13. Like the monster in horror fiction, ghosts represent the return of the repressed. Both Banquo’s ghost and Hamlet’s father represent an unrighted wrong. Like the monster in horror fiction, ghosts represent the return of the repressed. Both Banquo’s ghost and Hamlet’s father represent an unrighted wrong. They are an indication that an event in the past has failed to achieve closure. As a result of repression, usually caused by guilt, the ghost frequently re-presents itself at moments usually associated in some way with an anniversary of the event that needs to be repressed. To give a typical example, women who have abortions generally relive the guilt and anguish associated with the death of their child on the anniversary date of either the abortion itself or on the day the woman has calculated as the child’s birth date. The aborted child rises ghost-like on the anniversary of his death and accuses the mother in much the same way that Banquo’s ghost accuses Macbeth and the ghost of Hamlet’s father reproaches Hamlet. </em></blockquote>We clearly see Jones' penchant for a story and his main strength as a writer rather than an investigator. He takes examples from fiction books and movies to back up his hypotheses in a real-life context. There is more than enough fiction in his writings without bringing Shakespeare into it. I wonder if anybody else is rolling around in the isles laughing besides me! He even says later “But as in horror movies, so in real life.” Ha ha! It actually makes me wonder if Jones is really Catholic. Surely, he must know that the dead lose their free will and come to under the Will of God. That being the case, it is impossible for a spirit to roam the earth without God’s knowledge and approval. The most likely reason for a spirit to be roaming the earth would be to work out some type of penance before coming to Heaven. If he is saying that it is an illusion fabricated by the mind and springing from guilt, well, this is even more of a stretch, firstly because of the evaluation of science and secondly because only six people have this so-called “repressed guilt delusion”, children who were not even born during the periods of oppression and that had the least to be guilty about.<br /><br /><blockquote><em>14. Reduced to its simplest form, Medjugorje was this: two girls saw something one hill away from the place where the Surmanci massacres took place on the fortieth anniversary of the massacres, at a time when Tito had been dead for a little over a year and all of eastern Europe was aflame with the nationalism that the Polish labor union Solidarity had inspired in the subject nations of the Soviet empire. </em></blockquote>Pure fiction.<br /><br /><blockquote><em>15. Father Zovko tried to deflect attention from Surmanci, claiming that it was absurd “to offload on Medjugorje all the guilt for wartime atrocities that even we older ones hadn’t heard of; and as for the children, they weren’t even born,” but the Serbs remained unconvinced. Belgrade papers satirized an Ustase terrorist Madonna with a large knife between her teeth and a caption proclaiming, “The True Face of the Blessed Mother.”</em></blockquote>Obviously Father Jozo was in his correct mind and thank you, Mr. Jones, for pointing out his perfectly valid reply to such a ludicrous idea. More surprising is Jones’ rebuttal that “the Serbs remained unconvinced”, as if their strong sense of nationalism would afford them any reason to be so convinced.<br /><br /><blockquote><em>16. What the children saw, of course, became irrelevant by the third day of the apparitions when the Franciscans, specifically Jozo Zovko, became involved and turned the seers into foot soldiers in their war against Bishop Zanic. The deal with the children was cut as payment for not denouncing them as a hoax and exposing them thereby to the ire of a local population that wanted to believe that their deliverance was just around the corner.</em></blockquote>Hopefully realising his ghost theory was sounding a little “out there”, Jones has changed tack, though unfortunately it doesn’t get much better. All the Zanic arguments are discussed previously in this book. Nevertheless, I will answer anything that resembles a good objection (and there honestly isn’t much). Now, we see again the meaty prose designed to hook the reader, pointing to Jones’s confusion as to the point of his book - is it a serious assessment of Medjugorje or is it a novel? He accuses a Catholic priest of deceptively and uncaringly using children for his own agenda. Yet, he cannot consolidate this accusation because we then have to address the selfless act of Father Jozo’s willingness to go the jail in support of his beliefs, from which position it would be extremely difficult to orchestrate his "clandestine plan" any further. Now, the local population was already very suspicious of the apparitions in the beginning. The childrens' parents and even Father Jozo scolded them for "lying". Father Jozo remained suspicious for a long time. In an ironic twist, we hear that Bishop Zanic was the one trying to convince Father Jozo of the authenticity of the apparitions. But later, Bishop Zanic apparently changed his tune after being called in by the Communist Police. If Father Jozo’s worry was simply that the population would get upset over a fraud, then the population surely could understand six mischievous teenagers playing a prank than a priest praying a prank. It would have blown over very quickly.<br /><br /><blockquote><em>17. Although it was modeled consciously on Lourdes, with a little bit of Garabandal (the warning, the chastisement, the permanent supernatural sign) thrown in for good measure, Medjugorje itself was more like the equally bogus apparitions in Marpingen in Germany, which for a brief moment in the 1870s outdrew even Lourdes, upon which it too was based.</em></blockquote>Jones has this habit of arrogantly pronouncing on apparitions just because he can, despite the fact that the Vatican has not finally pronounced. This applies to both Garabandal and Marpingen, neither of which have been condemned by the Church. Regarding the 1999 apparitions at Marpingen, after six years of investigating the case, the Catholic Church announced that "there was justified doubt about the supernatural character of the alleged apparitions of the Virgin Mary." The special church commission did not go as far as proclaiming a pious fraud, but it also stopped short of explaining why the miraculous appearance of the mother of God could not be proven. My take on this is that the Vatican either weren’t willing to commit to a positive pronouncement given the available evidence, or found something in the Virgin’s comments, or other aspect of the vision, that alerted them to a need to revise some current Church proclamation or dogma, as it has done regularly over the centuries once some new information comes to light. In the case of the latter, it would be inappropriate to approve of a vision until the Church’s teachings are in line with what the visions teaches us, if indeed this is necessary. Marpingen has a similar history to Medjugorje in the sense of both apparitions occurring during a period of upheaval and religious persecution. This fact was used as ammunition by Jones, when he quoted Blackbourn: "there is overwhelming evidence... of the link between the apparitions and a combination of political persecution, material distress, and social change. That is true not only of the original events in Marpingen, but of the revitalized apparition movement in the twentieth century". He employed Blackbourne’s statement to support his tale that these apparitions are somehow some ghostly illusion or repressed injustices somehow surfacing in the form of an apparition. Jones says that the” fake” apparitions are borrowing ideas from the genuine apparitions and even borrowing off other “fake” apparitions, e.g. that Medjugorje is borrowing the apocalyptic aspects of Garabandal. However, if hoaxsters wanted to invent an apparition, surely they would make it as close as possible to apparitions that had been approved. Anyhow, the final word on the “hoax” card goes to the scientists. In the case of Medjugorje, scientific studies are multiple, extensive and intensive. Where one investigation left something out, the next one covered it or the way was left open for anyone to take up the challenge. At Medjugorje, there is no room for cynicism about current scientific findings. Because any objector has the opportunity to investigate further. The visionaries and Franciscans have wholeheartedly welcomed scientific investigations, excited by the prospect that science, at least, would be able to confirm what the Bishops and cynics have long doubted. As it is, there is very little doubt that Medjugorje is not a hoax. For more, see “<a href="http://www.marian-times.com/articles/medjugorje/medjugorje-scientific-investigation.cfm">Scientific Investigation</a>”. Jones knows this, which is why he steers well clear of it because he finds fulfillment in writing and selling tall tales, not facts. Facts such as these would simply spoil his fun.<br /><br />CONCLUSION TO JONES' OBJECTIONS<br /><br />A huge wet blanket composed of an ill-fitting collage of objections and whinings aimed at bombarding the reader with pure volume rather than substance. I don’t enjoy writing somebody off completely, but Jones’ objections are simply preposterous. He has caught the investigative journalism bug big time. He makes Zanic and Peric seem almost believable. Perhaps that was his aim.<br /><br />More of a writer than a serious investigator, he endeavours to connect dots from Medjugorje to anything that sounds ominous, including Nazism, New Age philosophies, Spiritism and plenty more. He has left no stone unturned, bottom-trawling for anything that could possibly, if the story is told just the right way, smear and damage the reputation of the seers or those immediately connected with them. Notice I did not say that these things could smear the Virgin or the apparitions themselves or the messages that come from them, because there is simply nothing that can directly stain these. And these are actually all we really care about.<br /><br />As well as "Indiana Jones", he would suit the nickname “Sideshow Bob. I have honestly scoured his writings for fair objections so that I could bring them out in the open for discussion but, unfortunately, I cannot. The best arguments were already given by Zanic and Peric. His writing picks up the threads and stretches them as far as they can go. It is all so outlandish and far removed from what we should be concentrating on – the visions and the visionaries. He has us traversing the landscape looking at unrelated, though possibly interesting, sideshows.<br /><br />In fact, I cannot see how he has deserved any type of reputation as a serious critic. His writings cannot be taken seriously and they would have most people falling about laughing – Medjugorje supporter or not. He has lost sight of the hay, looking for the needles.<br /><br />He is seriously confused about his mission – writer or investigator? He should choose one and stick with it. I can’t imagine people getting into a “novel” about Medjugorje. People want to read about Medjugorje in real life – the visions and the visionaries and the miracles and the healings. They don’t want to read all that ungracious nastiness. Jones has smeared every character that has not been nailed down and even some things that were nailed down (he even had some negative comments about the design of the outdoor pavilion behind St James’ Church!) He takes far too many liberties in his condemnation of holy priests, such as Father Jozo. He has cast stones in all directions and borne outright false witness against innocent people.<br /><br />I have had long email discussions with Jones during which I admitted that it did look as though the visionaries had told a couple of white lies to the Bishop, although I could not confirm it absolutely. And we kept coming back to his one main objection that he keenly insisted on:<br /><br /><em>“If the seers have admitted that they lied, there is no way that the Vatican can approve the apparitions. If the seers lied, they are not credible witnesses. If they are not credible witnesses, the apparitions are not worthy of belief. The conclusion flows inexorably from the premise which you have already admitted, namely, that the seers have lied.”</em><br /><br />He held this position even after I clearly showed the context of the alleged lies, which I have since explained. He did not reply to my latest email, in which I pointed out that there is room for “momentary aberration”, as shown below from the Church’s procedure for evaluating private revelations (any emphasis is mine):<br /><blockquote><p><br />An inquiry into the visionary's character might be pursued as<br />follows:</p><ol><li>What are his natural qualities or defects, from a physical, intellectual, and especially moral standpoint? If the information is favourable (if the person is of sound judgment, calm imagination; if his acts are dictated by reason and not by enthusiasm, etc.), many causes of illusion are thereby excluded. <strong>However, a momentary aberration is still possible.</strong></li></ol></blockquote>Not the mention that a revelation can be regarded as Divine in its broad outlines, but doubtful in minor details, e.g. the revelations of Marie de Agreda and Anne Catherine Emmerich.<br /><br />Jones, and all those who blazed Indiana Jones trails with him, has attacked not only Medjugorje, but most other Marian apparitions that have not yet been approved by the Vatican. Rick Salbato, who is of a similar ilk to Jones, even attacked an apparition that HAD been approved by the Church (i.e. Rwanda) on his website.<br /><br />Their favourite deception is using the loaded word “condemned”, a word that is rarely used in the Vatican since there was a list of “condemned books”. “Doubt” is a key word here. Ever since Sts Peter and Paul – these anointed men of God – fell into doubt so soon after Christ had risen to heaven (concerning whether Gentiles could join the Church without circumcision), doubt and confusion has characterized the voyage of the Catholic Church.<br /><br />Where there is doubt, it is not an appropriate reaction to spoil perfectly good fruits. It is in the hands of the Holy See. The fact is that the Vatican is uncertain about many of these apparitions, just as it is uncertain about other issues, which we see for example in the Vatican’s revision of the dogma that unbaptised children go to limbo. And, at the time of writing, the Vatican is revising its ban on condoms under certain circumstances. The Catholic Church is growing and evolving and is being assisted along the way by God’s regular providence in the form of private revelations.<br /><br />Jones and all those like him have a very great deal to answer for in terms of leading people away from what may turn out to have been very genuine apparitions – and for what? For the thrill of the chase! This is not God’s way! Their sensationalist writings have spread widely on the internet, with Rick Salbato even bragging that he had achieved a high Google page ranking. The effects of this include that atheists now have every reason to take miracles and apparitions less than seriously. This reflects, in turn, on the Catholic Church and on religion as a whole. Within the Church, backsliding believers (those most sternly reprimanded by Christ), who were originally re-ignited in their faith by the events at Medjugorje, had a wet blanket thrown over them by the first person they met who had seen an article or a blog regurgitating the writings of those such as Jones, Salbato et al.Paul Baylishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03608868311681288585noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37145732.post-73548530005440224262006-11-25T17:27:00.000-08:002006-12-16T16:44:54.928-08:00Medjugorje - Arguments of E Michael Jones (Part I)There have been other Catholic authors and self-styled investigators who have taken up the cause of the Bishop of Mostar. One such individual is E Michael Jones. We don’t know their real motivations, but from all appearances, it is purely related to selling the sizzle and grabbing eyeballs. No doubt one or two of them enjoy the image of the maverick crime-buster that it creates. It's just a big Indiana Jones thriller for them. After all, the noisiest ones like Jones come from the land of Hollywood, Reality TV, Talk Shows, Ratings and Press Deadlines.<br /><br />They initially picked up on the subtly deceptive and persuasive language and arguments used by Vatican negotiator and subsequent Bishop of Mostar, Pavao Zanic in his last ditch effort to get the Yugoslav Bishops’ Conference to condemn the apparitions. They spread the arguments all around the place as gospel about Medjugorje. After the Zadar Declaration, we were reading headlines such as “Vatican Condemns Medjugorje”, which was particularly painful to all concerned. This set the rumour mill working overtime and it brought all the would-be heroes out of the woodwork, semi-retired well-off folks with laptops and a loud mouth started up websites with all the arguments and objections listed in hyperlinks, preferably kept within their own website so that they could increase their Google ranking. And we sat back and saw it all working. Catholic Forums everywhere were inundated with the innuendo. People would come online telling about how they had been converted through Medjugorje and then someone would reply “Didn’t you know it has been condemned by the Church?” or “didn’t you know the Franciscans were disobedient?” We don’t know what happened to all those converted souls. We only hope and pray that God was looking after their new-born faith while these people sowed seeds of disruption and confusion all around them.<br /><br />Here are some of the objections of Jones<br /><br /><blockquote><em>1. "Phil Kronzer had lost his wife to Medjugorje around the same time Jeff Lopez had lost his, which is to say, over the winter of 93-94. Both of these domestic tragedies began with Medjugorje; just where they were going to end was not clear. When Jones got back to his hotel room in Reno, he got a call from a man in England warning him that if he went back to Bosnia, the Franciscans were going to have him killed."</em><br /></blockquote><br />For those who are not familiar with the story, Phil Kronzer is a wealthy California businessman, whose wife believed in Medjugorje while he developed a deep cynicism towards it for various reasons. I read a comment from someone who knows Phil Kronzer’s wife, Ardie. This person said that she “made her own choices” (as opposed to the claims of her being brainwashed in cult fashion) and that Phil “did a lot to make her look bad”.<br /><br />I have also been speaking at length by email with another major anti-Medjugorje Catholic reporter, who we shall call "RS". I asked him about his relationship with Jones and Phil Kronzer. He told me that he wanted nothing more to do with Phil Kronzer because his methods are not from God. He wanted to take all reference to Phil Kronzer off his website.<br /><br />Jones' complaint is rather weak. He is trying to cultivate bad fruits from Medjugorje by pointing to two failed marriage, failing to balance his report with the many testimonies of healed marriages as a result of Medjugorje.<br /><br /><blockquote><em>2. Proponents of the “apparition” like to talk about its fruits when they become uncomfortable with the behavior of the seers and their Franciscan handlers. Over the ten years since he had become involved in investigating Medjugorje, Jones had come up with his own list of fruits. The death threat he had just received in Reno was the beginning of a long list of bad things that had happened to the world since the Queen of Peace arrived in Yugoslavia in 1981.</em></blockquote>Jones’ list of fruits consist of a few highly dubious personal issues that have no bearing on the validity of the apparitions. His arguments rely on people being ignorant of the facts. People who get uncomfortable about the alleged “bad behaviour” of seers and Franciscans probably don’t realize that a few behavioural anomalies do not count against a vision’s authenticity. They also might not be aware that the Virgin herself scolded the visionaries on a couple of occasions, meaning that the Virgin nor the visions can be tarred by the humanity of the visionaries.<br /><br />Very few, I imagine, have read up on the Herzegovinian Affair, where they could be quickly enlightened as to the undesirable behaviour of the secular clergy and the injustices against the Franciscans. From this, they might fairly quickly understand how it is possible for Franciscans and visionaries to be defensive in the presence of the Bishop of Mostar and how it was possible that the Virgin herself spoke against the Bishop. Jones, if he understand the history himself (sometimes I doubt that he does), would never reveal it as it would seriously damage his case against the Franciscans and stain the reputation of his mentor and hero, Bishop Zanic. <a href="http://www.medjugorje.hr/eviktor.html">Click here for more about these unfortunate events.</a><br /><br /><blockquote><em>3. Broken vows, the pregnant nuns, the poor people bilked of their money, the division in the Church, the de facto schism, leading most recently to illicit confirmations in Capljina, the kidnapping of the local bishop, the ethnic cleansing, and, most dramatically, the worst fighting in Europe since World War II. All in all it was an impressive amount of malfeasance coming, as it did, from a group of people whose stated intention was prayer and following the instructions of the Blessed Mother.</em></blockquote><p>We will deal with each of these many objections individually, though some of them have already been dealt with on previous pages:</p><p><strong>Broken vows and pregnant nuns</strong>:<br />Yes, it is true that Vego left the priesthood and married a nun who had also left religious life. This event occurred in a private way and can no more affect the authenticity of the visions than could the actions of paedophilic priests affect the authenticity of the Catholic Church. Both the ex-priest and ex-nun live peacefully in Medjugorje, working in charities and demonstrating a model married life with their children.<br /><br /><strong>Defacto Schism:</strong><br />This objection comes from the writer’s negative view of the Charismatic movement. To not accept the Charismatic movement as wholly part of the Catholic Church under Vatican II is to indulge in schismatic behaviour oneself. The Franciscan leaders at Medjugorje are very watchful and quick to crack down on any perceived development that goes along with false teaching. Father Jozo Zovko is a prime example. In an example already given in this book, he denounced a movement that adopted a fatalistic apocolyptic view of the Medjugorje apparitions, a view which Father Jozo never took. They tried unsuccessfully to use his name as an endorsement for their work. The visions and the visionaries cannot be stained by any downstream anomalies which are bound to spring up. Leaders can only be as watchful as possible.<br /><br /><strong>Division in the Church:</strong><br />Division has been part and parcel of the Catholic Church since the very beginning with Peter v Paul over circumcision of the Gentiles.<br />Division at Medjugorje has been caused by unreasonable detractors from Bishop Zanic to the writer, Jones, himself.<br /><br /><strong>Illicit confirmations in Capljina:<br /></strong>Fr. Bonifac Barbaric from Capljina has been the most outspoken opponent of Medjugorje from the beginning and yet has never come to hear confessions or to concelebrate Mass in Medjugorje. Although he has had his faculties removed, in defiance to the Bishop and in opposition to the Franciscan Provincial, he continues to do parish work in Capljina. The other Franciscans fail to understand his motives and intentions. It is beyond them.<br /><br /><strong>People Bilked out of Money by Con-men:</strong><br />Wherever there are pilgrimages, the corrupt will find a way to cash in. Even Jesus had to deal with merchants and moneychangers outside the temple.<br /><br />Father Svet, a Franciscan from Medjugorje said: “I know that it is mostly the poor people who come as pilgrims to Medjugorje. They choose to come. They come for God. They know that a pilgrimage always involves a sacrifice. I see the phenomenon of Medjugorje as a continuation of the pilgrimage tradition of the Church. Pilgrims see good coming out of it for them. I know that it is not I who makes their pilgrimage good or fruitful for them. There is the rain, the heat, the cold and people still come. And they pray and sing and confess. They praise God and they climb the mountains regardless. They tell each other to come and they come again. The longer I stay in Medjugorje the more I realize that I am not the one bringing pilgrims here. No one could "make them" come.”<br /><br /><strong>Kidnapping of the local Bishop:</strong><br />If Jones knows the full story here, he would certainly not tell you. The word “kidnapping” sounds damning and, from a quick reading, it looks like the Bishop is an innocent victim, which is far from the truth. This incident relates to the Mostar Affair and has been discussed previously in this book. It is an example of the Bishop reaping what he sowed. Personally, I am quite surprised that there was only one such incident.<br /><br /><strong>Ethnic Cleansing of Muslims from Gradska:</strong><br />Simply no truth or backup and is an example of the lengths to which Agatha Christie writers like Jones go to establish any kind of negative link to the visions in order to spice up their stories so they can sell more books.<br /><br />A story of ethnic cleansing was kept alive for a long time in the Muslim daily “Feril Tribune” and was completely false.<br /><br />Father Svet personally addressed this ethnic cleansing accusation from Jones as follows:<br /><br />“Gradska is a place near Ljubuski. In addressing this point, the pressure against the Church in Croatia needs to be mentioned. In 1992, in Bosnia and Hercegovina (here noted as "BH") there were 900,000 Catholics. Now there are less than 450,000. Even now, the Catholics are the ones who are being most pressured to leave.<br /><br />The world is being told that it is the Catholics who are the most non-cooperative and are the ones responsible for the war. This is not true. There are 14 Catholics from BH in the Hague tribunal accused of war crimes. Very few Serbians and Muslims are there. A few days ago, a BBC broadcast from London blatantly accused only the Croatians of causing trouble in BH and bringing instability. There was no mention of almost half a million Catholics who are not able to return to their homes. In my former parish of Konjic in central Bosnia, for example, prior to the war, there were 12,000 Catholics. Now there are less than 1,000.<br /><br />Thousands of Catholics were killed. Ten of thousands were evicted from their homes. As refugees, they were forced to seek refuge in the Croatian controlled areas of Ljubuski. It was these refugees from Bosnia who caused tensions with the resident Muslim community in Gradska. The refugees were angry because they lost everything and they wanted to take justice into their own hands. The local authorities and people were powerless. It was then that the Croatian army, the HVO, decided that it would be best to bring the Muslims out of Ljubuski and out of Gradska. They were not killed like the Catholics in Bugojno. Some went to Croatia, some went abroad and some to Bosnia in Muslim controlled areas. At the same time as this was taking place, most of the residents of Medjugorje were refugees in Croatia, most in Dalmatia.<br /><br />Today, the remnant Catholic population in Bosnia continues to be under great pressure. For example, Catholics constitute 18% of the population of BH but they receive only 2% of the allotted funding. It is also documented that while Catholics have given and continue to give humanitarian aid to everyone in need, regardless of religion or political conviction, this is not reciprocal. In 1901, 43% of the population of Sarajevo was Catholic. Now it has been reduced to only 3%. Likewise, following the war, the Catholic population in Banja Luka has been reduced to less than 10 percent and would not exist at all if it were not for the bravery of Bishop Franjo Komarica. It was this same Bishop who was told by an EC [European Community] diplomat that it was not in the plan for the Catholics to remain in Banja Luka at all. Whose plan? The situation facing the Catholic community in BH is truly tragic and cannot be expressed in this short letter.”<br /><br /><strong>Malfeasance and trouble caused by visions:</strong><br />This appears to be an effort to call the Medjugorje visions demonic, a conclusion that Bishop Zanic himself stated that he did not agree with. Much of the disorder occurred or had its roots long before the virgin arrived. We have the wars, ethnic divisions and the long-running combined Herzegovinian, Mostar and Apaljina Affairs. Basically, before the Madonna came, the landscape was a political, ethnic and religious shambles. We prefer to believe that Our Lady came to clear up the mess and bring peace according to her title “Queen of Peace”. Experts who know a little bit more about the history, e.g. Dr. Viktor Nuiæ, OFM, points to the Bishops of Mostar as being practically WHOLLY responsible for ALL the inter-Church malfeasance in the region (<a href="http://www.medjugorje.hr/eviktor.html">his testimony can be read here</a>). Our Lady spoke out about the Bishop in her well-known statement/warning that irked the Bishop enough to make him turn against the apparitions. However, as smoke always indicates fire, the Bishop was eventually found guilty of having acted against cannon law in the Prusina and Vego affair. Malfeasance was to continue when the Bishop, refusing to believe the Virgin could be speaking against him, set about the task of destroying the credibility of the visions. Malfeasance is the legacy of this as the world's media, including Jones, picked up the threads and spread them widely and rashly. If any malfeasance occurred directly from any of the Franciscans in the form of “disobedience” for example, it was simply provoked. And informed people will know that all the sideshow shenanigans in the world do not automatically render authentic visions false. The coming of Jesus Christ was at a time much needed and He himself said in Matthew 10: </p><blockquote>34Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36and a man's foes will be those of his own household. </blockquote><p>Ironically, we are seeing this “brother against brother” situation right now in the Catholic Church over Medjugorje.<em></p></em><blockquote><em>Like his predecessors Misic and Zanic, Bishop Peric has had to deal with the rabidly nationalistic Herzegovinian Franciscans. Peric found out first-hand just how bellicose the “Queen of Peace” and her supporters can be.</em></blockquote><em><p></em></p>Although this is not an objection as such and has nothing to do with the authenticity of the visions, I have included it to give people a sense of how the media, often completely uninformed, uses loaded words and impressive prose. This came from Jones’s book, which is written like an Indiana Jones novel. I am not going to mention the name of the book because it deserves no publicity. The”rabidness” he attributes elsewhere is more correctly applied to his own writings.<br /><br />I’m also going to point out the error in the facts, though I don’t think facts are what Jones is genuinely concerned with and there is nothing that stains the visions or the visionaries. However, I do it for the sake of the souls of the ignorant innocent he would otherwise dupe.<br /><br />Jones calls the Franciscans “rabidly nationalistic”. First, the Franciscans themselves are nothing but peaceful and existed in peaceful communities for centuries. The “rabidness” came in the form of a new breed of secular Bishops, originating from Austria, who brought seriously bad attitudes into the region to the point where I, personally, can hardly recognize them as members of the clergy. The Franciscans tolerated them at length, which probably egged the bullying on even further. When the first proposal was made to take away parishes, the Franciscans, in conciliatory fashion, in fact made the first offer, even though they were able to show that they had full rights to retain their parishes.<br /><br />I can put it no other way than to say that these Bishops came with a plan to divest the Franciscans of their parishes and duped the Holy See into agreeing with it. Once agreed, they took far more than they were entitled to and picked the bones clean. That is it in a nutshell.<br /><br />It was not the Franciscans, but their parishioners, who revolted against the secular Bishops and I, personally, feel complete empathy with them if my readings of the events are correct. I mean, we hear the story of how Bishop Peric refused to allow refuge to Franciscans whose monastery was destroyed in the war and had nowhere to live temporarily. <blockquote><em><em>5. The Catholic Church did end up condemning Medjugorje in 1991, but St. James Church continued to attract pilgrims.</em></em></blockquote><p>This is probably the single most damaging misrepresentation of the truth surrounding the Medjugorje apparitions, and has sent thousands if not millions of unconverted souls back to lives of sin, instead of onto their new lives as converted souls. I have taken Jones to task about spreading this outright lie and have not received any sign of retraction to date.<br /><br />I repeat: Medjugorje was <strong>not</strong> condemned in the Zadar Declaration of 1991. </p><blockquote><em>6. St. James Church has undergone dramatic transformation as well. What used to be the muddy area surrounding it is now paved and decorated with statues. What used to be pasture and farmland behind it has now become a gravel parking lot, whose focal point is a hideous tent-like pavilion behind the church, which dwarfs the church itself, much as the apparitions and what they stand for have come to dwarf the Catholic parish which spawned them.</em> </blockquote><p>I included this to show how objectivity has gone completely out the window with Jones and many writers like him. My original notes regarding this passage read “Jones even has a beef with the decorators at Medjugorje! haha.” I think I’ll leave that as it is. And the only “dwarfing” done was to the ego of the Bishop of Mostar and to the objectivity of its detractors. The rest of the parish fairly blossoms with the beauty of the presence of the Madonna. There is no ugliness at Medjugorje. All the ugliness comes from people like Jones. </p><blockquote><em>7. The connection between Surmanci and Medjugorje, both from the point of view of place and time, seems too obvious to ignore, although Craig goes on to do just that in Spark from Heaven, which ends up being one more instance of promotional literature— a bit ambivalent, better written perhaps, but in the end another piece of advertisement for the ultimate benefit of the airlines, the travel agents, the Franciscans and the “seers.”</em> </blockquote><p>This is a prime example of the work of the Indiana Jones’s, who have attempted to establish links with whatever mystery and intrigue they can find. Jones is trying to tell the world that there is a good chance that the vision experience at Medjugorje is simpy a ghost who represents a collective repressed guilty conscience. It is eminently ignorable. Most believers say the atrocities at Surmanci are yet another reason why Mary has chosen Medjugorje. She comes as a salve of forgiveness and peace for so much human wrongdoing. </p><em><blockquote><em>8. But the “seers” are far from being declared saints by the same Church which declared them liars.</em> </blockquote></em><p>Jones’s rabid reporting reaches another level. Not only has he spread lies by saying the Church condemned Medjugorje. He now says the Church has declared them liars. Certainly it has done no such thing. The Bishop of Mostar came to this conclusion all by himself and the Church rejected his final pronouncement. </p><blockquote><em>9. So the questions remain. What exactly did they see on that day in June in 1981? Or did they see anything at all? In late October 1989, Ivan Dragicevic, the Medjugorje “seer,” was a long way from home. He was in San Francisco in fact, and having survived the biggest earthquake in recent memory on the day of his arrival, he was standing in the back yard of a Croatian Emigre by the name of Joe Tolaich, having a cigarette. Joe Tolaich was part of the Croatian Diaspora living in the bay area. He had grown up in Metkovic, a few kilometers down the Neredva from Medjugorje and had in fact been one of the first people to arrive in Medjugorje as pilgrims during the summer of 1981. Joe’s attitude toward the Blessed Mother had a distinctly practical bent. Faced with the prospect of having a seer who had daily contact with the Blessed Mother in his own home, Joe asked Ivan if the Virgin Mary might divulge, during one of her visits, her favorite six numbers, so that Joe could put them to good use in the state lottery. Perhaps Joe had become skeptical because of Ivan’s lifestyle. Whatever the reason, he never got an answer to his question, which prompted him to ask Ivan on that evening while he was having a cigarette in his back yard, whether Ivan was really seeing the blessed Mother. Ivan’s answer was something less than reassuring to the pious. “Joe,” Ivan replied after taking a drag on his cigarette, “I’m seeing something.”</em> </blockquote><p>Very fanciful prose and we don’t have the full transcript of the conversation with Ivan. Unfortunately, we are well used to detractors taking statements out of context. Jones himself has already tarnished his credibility by telling lies in previous sections. Nevertheless, I will leave his comments there for others to read and decide for themselves. From here on, we see Jones’s conspiracy theories which cover the eventuality that Ivan is indeed seeing something, even though Jones has everywhere else already been giving evidence that it is a hoax and that Ivan is not seeing anything at all. Well, OK, let’s assume that at least the part about “seeing something” can be believed. We need Jones to establish a starting point for his opinions because at the moment he loses all credibility simply digging around for anything at all that will disprove the apparitions – hardly credible reporting, and the reason is that Jones is not a reporter, he is a story-teller. </p><p><a href="http://mariantimes.blogspot.com/2006/11/medjugorje-arguments-of-e-michael_25.html">Continued in part II</a><br /></p><p><br /></p>Paul Baylishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03608868311681288585noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37145732.post-1164503621922269762006-11-25T16:58:00.000-08:002006-11-25T17:13:41.936-08:00Medjugorje - Arguments of Bishop Zanic (Part III)Excerpts from soon to be published book.Copyright (c) Paul Baylis, marian-times.com. Comments are welcome, but unauthorised use of any material here is strictly forbidden and legal action will be taken if ignored. Please email <a href="mailto:mariantimes01@yahoo.com">mariantimes01@yahoo.com</a> with any comments or requests to use this text. <hr /><br /><blockquote>On the 4th of April 1982, Vicka and Jakov came to visit me "sent by Our Lady." The chaplains of Mostar, Vego and Prusina, were thrown out of the Franciscan Order in January of that year by the superiors of their Order. Many followers of Medjugorje and "Our Lady" defended the expelled chaplains. During our conversation, Vicka very excitedly began: "The last time we were with you, we didn't tell you everything and for this reason Our Lady scolded us. We spoke of many things and therefore we forgot..." "What did you forget?" "Our Lady told us to tell you that those chaplains, Vego and Prusina, are priests and, therefore, they can celebrate Mass just like other priests." "Wait a minute. Did Our Lady tell you this before our last meeting?" "Yes, that's why she sent us to you. Last time I spoke of many other things and I forgot to mention this." during that previous meeting I asked her directly several times if Our Lady mentioned anything about the two chaplains. It was clear to me that Vicka was lying, and this was proof enough for me not to trust her statements. Marija and Jakov also participated in this lie. </blockquote><br />Editors Note: We see that, indeed Vicka and Jakov owned up to their lie. We can only speculate why they lied, but one can’t help thinking that they did not want to anger the Bishop by relating what the Virgin had told them about him. However, despite this, the salient point is that Our Lady scolded them for omitting part of the message and they came back to correct the situation.<br /><br /><blockquote><em>Towards the end of January 1983, Rev. Grafenauer, a Jesuit priest, came to me with the intention of researching the phenomenon of Medjugorje. He listened to 20 cassettes, and after having listened to them he said that he would not go to Medjugorje because he concluded that Our Lady was not appearing there. Upon my insistence he went to Medjugorje and after a few days he came back as a "convert" of Fr. Vlasic. He brought some documents, threw them on the table and said: "Here's what Our Lady wishes to tell you!" I understood this as a plot to overthrow the bishop with the help of Our Lady. The documents he brought were a compilation of Vicka's diary, the parish chronicle and hand-written documents. For this reason it is difficult to establish where they were first written. Vicka and those who defend Medjugorje hid this from the bishop for more than a year. Here are a few quotes:<br /><br />December 19, 1981: "Our Lady said that the bishop is to blame for the disorder in Herzegovina. She also said that Rev. Ivica Vego is not to blame, yet that the bishop has all authority. Our Lady said that he [Vego] should remain in Mostar and not leave.<br /><br />January 3, 1982: All the "seers" together asked Our Lady about Rev. Ivica Vego. Our Lady answered: "Ivica is innocent. If they throw him out of the Franciscan Order, may he remain courageous.... Ivica is innocent." Our Lady repeated this three times.<br /><br />January 11, 1982: We asked again about the two chaplains of Mostar, and Our Lady repeated twice what she had mentioned earlier regarding them. (Note: January 14, 1982, Vicka was at the Chancery office with the bishop and at that meeting she mentioned that she did not know Vego.)<br /><br />January 20, 1982: The children asked what Rev. Ivica Vego and Rev. Ivan Prusina were to do now that they were thrown out of the Order. Our Lady answered: "They are innocent. The bishop was harsh in his decision. They can stay."<br /><br />April 15, 1982: Vicka asked Our Lady a question. "Could you generally tell me everything about Ivica Vego and Ivan Prusina?" Our Lady smiled at first and then she said, "They are innocent." She repeated twice that: "The bishop has made a mistake... let them remain at Mostar.... they can say Mass sometimes but may they be careful to stay away from attention until things calm down. They have no faults...."<br /><br />April 16, 1982: "Yesterday while we were with Our Lady we asked her if we could pray the Our Father for them [Vego and Prusina]. She answered immediately: 'Yes you can,' and she prayed with them. When we finished the prayer she smiled and said to me: "Those two are constantly on your mind." I answered, "You're right."<br /><br />April 26, 1982: Our Lady: "The bishop has no real love of God in his heart. Regarding the bishop, may Ivica and Ivan remain calm. What the bishop is doing is contrary to the will of God, yet he can do as he pleases, but one day justice as you have never seen shall be revealed."</em><br /></blockquote><br /><br />Editors Note: All of this has already been discussed. It is clear that the Bishop simply couldn’t believe, or refused to believe that he could possibly be in the wrong. In fact in 1993, a few years after these objections were published, the Bishop was indeed found to have been acting contrary to canonical law, while Vego and Prusina were cleared of any wrongdoing. The Vatican knows full well what has been going on. Furthermore, the Vatican has tacitly agreed with the Virgin because we see how the Bishop of Mostar’s opinions on Medjugorje have been essentially disowned by the Vatican officially in an official letter.<br />The case of Grafenauer demonstrates an important point, i.e. that despite the enticing arguments put forward by the Bishop and other detractors, the truth can probably never be discovered without an open mind and without first-hand experience.Paul Baylishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03608868311681288585noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37145732.post-1164502601599690342006-11-25T16:30:00.000-08:002006-11-25T17:23:44.298-08:00Medjugorje - Arguments of Bishop Zanic (Part II)<p>Excerpts from soon to be published book. Copyright © Paul Baylis, marian-times.com. Comments are welcome, but unauthorised use of any material here is strictly forbidden and legal action will be taken if ignored. Please email <a href="mailto:mariantimes01@yahoo.com">mariantimes01@yahoo.com</a> with any comments or requests to use this text. <p><hr /><br /><p></p><p><em></em></p><em><blockquote><em>Bishop Zanic:<br />The Marian theologian Rene Laurentin behaves in the same manner. He came to visit me around Christmas 1983, and I offered him dinner. When he asked me why I did not believe in the apparitions, I told him that according to the diary of Vicka and the words of the other "seers" this "Lady" has been speaking against the bishop. Laurentin quickly responded: "Don't publish that, because there are so many pilgrims and converts here." I was scandalized by this statement of this well-known Mariologist! Unfortunately this has remained Laurentin's position: to hide the truth and defend falsehoods. He has written around ten books on the topic of Medjugorje, and in almost all of them, the truth and Bishop Zanic are under fire. He knows well what people like to hear. Therefore, it was relatively easy for him to find those who would believe him. "A veritate quidam auditum avertent, ad fabulas autem convertentur" -- "They will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths" (2 Tim. 4:4). The "seers" and defenders of Medjugorje led by Laurentin from the very outset have seen that the modern believer in a communist country very quickly believes in something "miraculous," in apparent miraculous healings and apparent messages from "Our Lady."</em> </blockquote></em><p></p><blockquote></blockquote>Editors Note:Perhaps, in the early stages, Rene Laurentin was not familiar with the Herzegovinian, Mostar or Apeljina Affairs. If he did know, then I doubt that he could have wanted to hide the fact that Our Lady had said things against the Bishop. Medjugorje citizens are only too aware and it would not surprise most of them that Our Lady said these things. After Laurentin got himself up to speed, he would also have realised. Certainly, it wasn’t until 1993 that the Vatican ruled in favour of two priests Vego and Prusina who Zanic was trying to defrock for administering sacarements to the faithful in secular parishes. The Holy See, in this case, found that it was in fact Bishop Zanic that had acted against Cannon Law. This event completely validates Our Lady’s statement against Him.<br /><br /><blockquote><em>The credibility of the "seers" - Mirjana Dragicevic. One month after the beginning of the "apparitions" I went to Medjugorje to question the "seers." I asked each of them to take an oath on the cross and demanded that they speak the truth. (This conversation and oath were recorded on tape.) The first one was Mirjana: "We went to look for our sheep when at once..." (The associate pastor interrupted and told me that they actually went out to smoke, which they hid from their parents.) "Wait a minute, Mirjana, you're under oath. Did you go out to look for your sheep?" She put her hand over her mouth. "Forgive me, we went out to smoke," she said.</em> </blockquote><br /><br />Editor’s Note: Zanic continually attacks the credibility of the seers over very small incidences and anomalies. This strategy was adopted by later writers such as E Michael Jones because, not having much substantial evidence against the Virgin's messages, they felt that there was an opportunity to cast sufficient doubt on the visions if enough dirt could be brought against the visionaries. It has to be remembered that the visionaries are defensive against the Bishop by default, given his reputation during the Herzegovina, Mostar and Apeljina Affairs. Zanic was a negotiator and he felt he knew how to put pressure on the Vatican to get what he wanted, as his predecessors were able to do when they were successful in getting the Vatican to agree, essentially through fraud, to the handover of vast numbers of Franciscan parishes. The visionaries feel like POWs in the Bishop's presence. I'm sure they would have felt safer in the hands of the communist police.<br /><br /><blockquote><em>Later on, she claimed that Our Lady said that all faiths are equal. How much can we believe Mirjana?</em></blockquote><br />Editor’s Note: This is one of the sayings of Our Lady that is most falsely represented of all. Bishop Zanic probably already realized much later that Our Lady did not mean to say members of all faiths would necessarily be saved. Our Lady actually said the following, and it should be clear that Our Lady is simply reiterating the Biblical truth that all people are loved by God and have the opportunity to be saved if they obey His commandments.<br /><br />Our Lady’s statement: “All religions are dear to my son. It is you on earth who are divided. We are all children of God. The Moslems and the Orthodox for the same reason as Catholics are equal before my son and me. All religions are not equal. All men are equal before God. It does not suffice to belong to the Catholic Church to be saved. It is necessary to respect and obey the commandments of God in following one’s conscience. Those who are not Catholics are no less creatures made in the image of God and destined ultimately to live in the house of God. Salvation is available to everyone without exception. Only those who refuse God deliberately are condemned by their own choice."<br /><br />I believe that all faiths are “tolerated” by God, but that God wishes all faiths to “mature”. Such a supposition makes sense to anybody who considers that many faiths are indoctrinated from the cradle and there is large degree of parochialism which is difficult to overcome. Furthermore, at least those of any religion have the humility to believe in an all-powerful being, as opposed to a completely atheistic, naturalistic secular view of the world in which men’s pride puts them on the highest pedestal. Finally, we can sympathise with the confusion about and within various religions. After all, Jesus had only ascended to heaven for a short time before confusion and indecision began creeping in, particularly with regard to the arguments between Peter and Paul, who could not agree whether the gentiles should be allowed to join the new church without being circumcised!The Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith Declaration Vatican’s “DOMINUS IESUS” on the Unicity and Salvific Universality of Jesus Christ and the Church seems to follow this line of thinking:<br /><br />"…In considering the values which these religions witness to and offer humanity, with an open and positive approach, the Second Vatican Council's Declaration on the relation of the Church to non-Christian religions states: The Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in these religions. She has a high regard for the manner of life and conduct, the precepts and teachings, which, although differing in many ways from her own teaching, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men. Continuing in this line of thought, the Church's proclamation of Jesus Christ, the way, the truth, and the life?(Jn 14:6), today also makes use of the practice of inter-religious dialogue. Such dialogue certainly does not replace, but rather accompanies the missio ad gentes, directed toward that mystery of unity from which it follows that all men and women who are saved share, though differently, in the same mystery of salvation in Jesus Christ through his Spirit. Inter-religious dialogue, which is part of the Church's evangelizing mission, requires an attitude of understanding and a relationship of mutual knowledge and reciprocal enrichment, in obedience to the truth and with respect for freedom."<br /><br />Mary’s statement is also expressive of a desire for peace in the region. She specifically mentions the Orthodox, Muslims and Catholics – the three main religious identities in the region – a mix of religious ideology that has been the root cause of all the major disturbance in the region since the break-up of Yugoslavia and even before that. The Virgin truly comes as a healer and this justifies her title “Queen of Peace”, contrary to detractors who try to equate the Virgin’s arrival with the onset of troubles in the region.Paul Baylishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03608868311681288585noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37145732.post-1164488266738247512006-11-25T12:42:00.000-08:002006-11-29T01:35:40.097-08:00Medjugorje - Arguments of Bishop Zanic (Part I)<span style="font-size:85%;">Excerpts from soon to be published book. Copyright © Paul Baylis, marian-times.com. Comments are welcome, but unauthorised use of any material here is strictly forbidden and legal action will be taken if ignored. Please email </span><a href="mailto:mariantimes01@yahoo.com"><span style="font-size:85%;">mariantimes01@yahoo.com</span></a><span style="font-size:85%;"> with any comments or requests to use this text.</span><br /><br /><br /><br /><hr /><br /><br /><br />Bishop Zanic’s Objections (with the author’s comments after “Editor’s Note”)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><em><blockquote><em>Propaganda in favor of Medjugorje is being rushed in order to place before the Church and the world a "fait accompli." This has been the intention of the defenders of Medjugorje from the beginning.</em></blockquote>Editor's Note: Bishop Zanic is forgetting that he was the key defender, who wanted to push it through as a fait accompli right at the very beginning. He even encouraged Father Jozo to come to a quicker decision and to see the work of God’s hands!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></em><blockquote><em>A characteristic attitude: Marina D., a tourist guide for Atlas travel, brought a priest from Panama to my office in August 1989. His name: Presbitero Rodriguez Teofilo, pastor of Nuestra Senora de Lourdes. With him came Carmen Cecilia Capriles - a journalist, Director General of the IATA agency, Avenida Alberto Navarro, Apartado 1344 Zona 7, Panama.<br />Marina presented herself as a tour-guide translator for English and a convert because of Medjugorje.The priest asked me for the reasons why I do not believe in the "apparitions." I told him that I have at least 20 reasons not to believe, of which only one is necessary for those who are sober and well instructed in the faith to come to the conclusion that the apparitions are not of supernatural origin. He asked me to please tell him at least one reason. I told him about the case of the ex-Franciscan priest Ivica Vego. Due to his disobedience, by an order of the Holy Father the pope, he was thrown out of the Franciscan religious<br />order by his General, dispensed from his vows and suspended "a divinis." He did not obey this order, and he continued to celebrate Mass, distribute the sacraments and pass the time with his mistress. It is unpleasant to write about this, yet it is necessary in order to see who is speaking for Our Lady.<br />According to the diary of Vicka and the statements of the "seers", Our Lady claimed 13 times that Vego was innocent and that the bishop was wrong. When his mistress, Sister Leopolda, a nun, became pregnant, both of them left Medjugorje and the religious life and began to live together near Medjugorje where their child was born. Now they have two children. His prayerbook is still sold at Medjugorje and elsewhere in hundreds of thousands of copies.</em> </blockquote><br />Editors Note: Time has passed since this statement by Bishop Zanic. There are several separate issues that Zanic has rolled into one to create an overall picture that suits his purpose. Frstly, Vego and Prusina were accused of administering sacraments to the faithful who refused to receive them from the secular clergy, which had bulldozed its way into the parishes handed over by the Franciscans. In fact the Apostolic See in Rome on 27 March 1993 stated that Franciscans had not committed any violation but that Bishop Zanic had been acting in contradiction with canonical law. This was in accordance with Our Lady’s statements against the Bishop and she herself predicted that the truth would be made known in time and that the accused Franciscans were to remain strong and patient. Secondly: The illicit affair with the nun is true, but was a completely personal and separate issue between himself and God. The real issue here is that Bishop Zanic did not like being told that he was in the wrong.<br /><br /><br /><br /><blockquote><em>Fifty miraculous healings have been mentioned, then 150, 200, 300, and so on. Laurentin chose 56 dossiers and sent them to the "Bureau medical de Lourdes." Dr. Mangiapan responded in their Bulletin, April '84, that these dossiers have no practical value, and they cannot be used or considered as serious proofs of the apparitions in Medjugorje. Much has been written about the healing of Diane Basile. I sent the dossier to Dr. Mangiapan who studied the case and then took the position "opinion plus que reservée." It is a case of multiple sclerosis. More will be written about this later in a book.</em></blockquote>Editors Note:<br /><br />This type of objection is very typical of what I hear from atheists, whose required level of proof is nearly impossible to obtain because, in the end, it will still always be an individual doctor’s opinion or research team’s opinion. It's funny; they will accept non-religious things with a lot less evidence than the scientific evidence at Medjugorje shows.<br /><br />There are simply countless testimonies of miraculous healings that all reason suggests are genuine, yet the documentation surrounding them often is not up to the highest standards required for miracle confirmation. The individuals are so happy to be healed and documenting their healing never seems important.<br /><br />Nevertheless, there are some cases that come pretty close to providing the type of evidence required. Below are brief discussions of two of the major provable examples, among many thousands at Medjugorje (quoted directly from <a href="http://www.medjugorje.ws/en/apparitions/docs-medjugorje-miracles/">http://www.medjugorje.ws/en/apparitions/docs-medjugorje-miracles/</a>)<br /><br /><strong>Diane Basile</strong><br /><br />Mrs. Diana Basile, born October 5, 1940 in Platizza, Cosenza, Italy, suffered from multiple sclerosis, an otherwise incurable disease, from 1972 till May 23, 1984. In spite of the expert help of the professors and doctors at the clinic in Milan, she grew more and more sick. By her own desire she came to Medjugorje and was present during the apparition of Our Lady in a room connected to the Church and was suddenly healed. All of that happened in such a quick and thorough way that on the following day the same woman walked barefoot 12 kilometres from the hotel in Ljubuski, where she spent the night, to the apparition hill in order to thank Our Lady for the healing. Ever since then until today, she has remained well.<br /><br />Upon her return to Milan, the doctors were astonished by her healing and immediately established a medical commission, which was again thoroughly to examine both the previous and present condition of the healed woman. They collected 143 documents and, in the end, 25 professors, head doctors, and other doctors wrote a special book about the disease and the healing in which they stated that Diana Basile indeed did suffer from multiple sclerosis, that for many years she was unsuccessfully treated, but that now she is completely well and that this did not happen by any kind of therapy, nor by any kind of medicine. They, thereby, indicated that the cause of the healing was from a different than scientific source.<br /><br /><strong>Rita Klaus</strong><br /><br />Another more significant miracle happened to Rita Klaus of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania USA, a teacher and mother of three children, born January 25, 1940, who for 26 years suffered from multiple sclerosis. She was also one that neither doctors nor medicine were able to help. Reading the book about Medjugorje, Is the Blessed Virgin Appearing in Medjugorje? by Laurentin-Rupcic, she decided to accept Our Lady's messages. And once while she was praying the rosary on May 23, 1984, she felt within herself some unusual warmth. After that, she felt well. And from then till today the patient is completely well and capable of doing all her domestic and school work. There is a solid medical documentation about her sickness and her futile therapy and likewise a professional certification of the doctors on her extraordinary and incomprehensible healing, which is complete and permanent.<br /><br /><br /><strong>Comedian Healed at Medjugorje - Converts to Catholicism<br /></strong><br />Written by Michael H. Brown.<br />Reported in Spirit Daily.com online newspaper. When life seems to be closing in on us, in a world that so often seems upside-down, there is one way to exit, and that's through humor. A sure cure for our ills is found in laughter! Usually, we should be laughing at ourselves. And one thing that should make us smile is how silly it is to worry when we have God. In the Light of His eternity and angels and watchfulness, there is nothing to fear but lack of prayer. We can even pray for a good sense of humor!<br /><br />Many of you have heard the experts talk about how laughter can help us recover from serious illnesses. That's because humor is a spiritual release and when we release something on that level, it goes to both our emotions and bodies.<br /><br />A great example of this -- of both healing and laughter -- is Char Vance, the television producer and comedian from New Orleans who is often out there speaking at conferences and causing people to roll in the aisles. Char had been in the radio business when she suffered a horrendous accident. It was on Halloween night at a farm she owned back in the 1980s. She and a group were riding on a tractor-pulled wagon when suddenly they caught sight of the barn on fire. Char jumped off in hopes of running to the blaze but got caught underneath, injured so badly it looked like part of her leg would have to be amputated. The ankle was severely damaged.<br /><br />Just crushed. No bone support at all. It looked like a lifelong handicap. At the time, Char Vance was not a Catholic, but a friend got her to go to the apparition site of Medjugorje -- much besmirched these days by the devil. And for good reason: this is a place of enormous conversion. Ask Char. Her recounting of her trip and her conversion to the Catholic faith -- more importantly, to faith in Jesus -- is a hilarious excursion into deep spirituality. Finally, it has been captured on videotape.<br /><br />At Medjugorje, where Char hobbled in a huge, lumbering cast, the Louisiana woman climbed the holy highland of Mount Krizevac despite those who thought it was crazy and despite her own skepticism. "I wondered why [after Apparition Hill], they wanted us to go up the mountain," she jokes. "I said, why do you have us climbing two hills, two mountains in one day? It's not like we're going to run out of fun things to do here!" Here she was in a place with no TV and no hotels and no pools, drinking beer while everyone else was praying the Rosary in a way she saw as strange and obsessive. But Char went up the "hill." As she walked a dirt road on the outskirts of the village, something had said to her, "You know, it will be just your luck if something big happens up there and you're gonna miss it." That's what had finally convinced her to go up. She and her companions caught a cab. When they got to the mountain, many others were doing the same.<br /><br />"I didn't know a lot of prayers," says Char, who was not a Catholic at the time. "I knew 'Now I lay me down to sleep' and the Lord's Prayer, but that's the most wonderful thing you Catholics have: you have prayers for everything," she jokes. "You know, you got department heads. You lost something, you got St. Anthony. You got bad eyes you got St. Lucy..." Heading up the mountain and praying at the Fourth Station of the Cross, Char propped up her cast on a boulder and here comes a monk -- a very unusual monk. "He had on this white robe and the hood up and he's carrying a tripod with nothing on it, no camera. And he's looking directly at me," says Char. "And coming to me. And he says, 'You know, when I was in Germany, I had the good fortune of meeting Theresa Neumann.' To me it was like saying, 'I met John Jones.' He said, 'You know who that is, don't you?' I said, 'No.' And he said, 'Well, she was a stigmatist.'" Got me again, said Char. "Don't you know what a stigmatist is?" the man asked.<br />Uh uh, replied Char.<br /><br />He explained what a stigmatic was (someone who had received the wounds of Christ) and pulling out a rosary told her that he had put it on her stigmatic wounds and that it had since healed people of many problems, including cancer. "Here I am with this big cast on the rock, and he says, 'I would like your permission to put this on your head!'"It's hard to convey how Char tells this story. Her inflections, her timing, her side comments are hilarious. The tape shows an audience in constant stitches. But she was telling a serious story. "When something like this happens, you think 'somebody has tapped into your thoughts' -- and you better start thinking some holy pious thoughts QUICK!"<br /><br />The mysterious stranger told Char to say seven Our Fathers, Hail Marys, and Glory Bes, and when she got to the top, the Creed. "When he left he would talk to others," she recounts. "If they were French he would begin talking in French. If you were Spanish he would start speaking Spanish. It was like he knew what you were before he got there."At the seventh Station, the comedian noticed the "monk" was kind of winded. Char offered him a canteen of water. "He smiled a smile that went all the way through me," she says.<br /><br />Medjugorje is famous for the reports of mysterious strangers -- including monks or nuns in white. When Char got to the top, the seers were ready to have an apparition. Char didn't want to see anything -- afraid there would be hysteria and she would fall off the mountain! They were at the large cross there. "All of a sudden it's gets quiet, quiet, quiet. All of a sudden, that cross lit up, and it lit up, best I can describe it, like those old strobe lights, quick, and I see Jesus on the cross. I saw him like I have never seen a person before or since. He looked horrible -- horrible -- his nose was laying over, and He had this enormous crown, not this little crown like you see. This thing was like a big bird's nest. That quickly it lit up again and I saw it again."<br />Vance wasn't alone. Others in her group were astonished to witness the same thing. The mountain is known for a wide array of phenomena -- although this particular type we had not previously encountered. It is the cross where the Blessed Mother says she prays each day.<br /><br />A woman next to Char said, "Did you just see Christ on that cross?" Char felt "totally zapped." She now knew without a doubt that God and the Blessed Mother existed. When she got back, she had to go to the doctor for x-rays. She went in the waiting room "and all of a sudden the technician comes out with all these x-rays and he says [in a loud voice], 'Charlene Vance, you've been healed, you've been healed!'" "You should have seen the people in there with their People magazines!" she jokes.<br /><br />But it was true: the nurse ran in too, and then the doctor arrived -- gracing them with his "presence." "When's the last time you saw a doctor come into the waiting room!" she recalls with a roll of her eyes. "The nurse said, 'Did you hear about?'" The doctor said he had to take a look at it. It looked like there was bone growth! He asked Char to slowly try to see if she could move her toes. She could do more than that. She could rotate her whole ankle! She was with her mother. "I started dancing around and saying, 'Ma, ma, I can walk, praise God I can walk!' He runs out and brings out another doctor and they look at the x-rays and my mother says, 'Doctor, doctor, what is it,' and he says -- direct quote -- 'There's absolutely no correlation in her x-rays before she went and when she got back. There's total bone growth everywhere.'"<br /><br /><br />SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATION<br /><br />The reported Marian apparitions at Medjugorje seem tailor made for scientific investigation. The virgin has reportedly been appearing every single day for over 25 years, and scientists are invited! The regularity of the apparitions has made for consistent and reliable findings, allowing solid conclusions to be drawn and thorough documentation to be prepared. There is no room for retrospective cynicism. The visions are still going on, so any scientists unsatisfied after reading the current reports can take their shot now or forsake their right to skepticism later.<br /><em></em><br />SUMMARY OF SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATIONS<br /><br />Professor Henri Joyeux headed a team from the University of Montpellier, France and Dr. Frigerio and colleagues from Italy conducted further investigations.<br /><br />The findings were (quoted directly from Medjugorje.org):<br /><br />1) Five alleged visionaries tested were found to simultaneously look at precisely the same spot (even though no reference point was visible) within one-fifth of a second of each other when the Blessed Virgin Mary allegedly appears. Such synchronization can only be explained by some external "object" holding their gaze -- but one which those around them could not see.<br /><br />2) During the same one-fifth of a second, there are simultaneous kneeling and the cessation of eye movements. There is no eye movement during the entire apparition (from 3 to 45 minutes). There is also the simultaneous raising of their heads and gazing upwards while remaining fixated on a spot moving upwards when the apparition is finishing.<br /><br />3) Two of the alleged visionaries do not blink at all during the apparition. The eyeball normally dries when there is no regular blinking (15-20 times a minute) to moisten the cornea, but lacrimal secretion does not seem necessary during the apparition. The other alleged visionaries blink about half the normal rate. None of them blinks in response to touching the eye during the apparition (cornea sensitivity to varying pressures is completely absent), although they blink normally at other times.<br /><br />4) There is no reaction to pain during the apparition. When touched with an algometer, which causes a cutaneous lesion or skin burn, there was complete absence of sensitivity. The alleged visionaries react normally to pain at other times.<br /><br />5) The interesting results of a hearing test before and during an apparition showed normal hearing, but during the apparition, an input of ninety decibels (equivalent to a loud explosion) showed NO reaction. Auditory evoked potential measurement (electrical activity of the ear) indicates normal ear activity with no transmission to the inner ear during the apparition. It is a measurable inhibition of hearing that is involuntary and inexplicable physiologically.<br /><br />6) Electroencephalographic (EEG) tests confirm that the alleged visionaries' brain functioning is normal and healthy. EEG tests rule out the possibility of epilepsy or psychotic hallucinations. The alleged visionaries are not asleep or dreaming either. Hysterical neurotic reaction or pathological ecstasy is also ruled out by the EEG testing. What EEG testing showed was that before the apparition, the brain waves are predominantly beta rhythm interspersed by alpha rhythm (normal conscious attentiveness). At the start of the apparition, the beta rhythm remains for a short time and then is replaced by an almost uninterrupted alpha rhythm. Alpha rhythm is most often observed during relaxation, in a state of expectation, or engaged in meditation. It also usually requires practice to achieve such a diffuse response. Because most of the brain is devoted to visual processing, it is noteworthy that the alpha rhythm over the entire cranium was exhibited while the alleged visionaries had their eyes wide open throughout the apparition. Closed eyes would be expected with alph rhythm because visual stimulation usually produces interference with alpha rhythm.<br /><br />7) To test visual stimulation further, a 1000 watt light bulb was placed in front of the eyes of the alleged visionaries during the apparition. Not only is a 1000 watt light bulb usually painful to the eye but also it would normally cause increased blinking and influence alpha rhythm. There was no blinking movement of the eyelids to the 1000 watt stimulus. There was an interesting pupillary response. The pupil contracted as one would expect in bright light but there was no change in alpha rhythm to the 1000 watt light. This is scientifically inexplicable and never seen before. FOR THE PUPIL TO RESPOND, THE BRAIN MUST REGISTER THE LIGHT BUT NO BRAIN WAVE CHANGE TOOK PLACE. Additionally, such intense stimulation normally causes a significant cortical response, but none occurred during the apparition period.<br /><br />8) During the apparition period, another scientifically inexplicable event takes place. The alleged visionaries voices stop during the time that they are having the vision. Even though all the muscles involved in speech continue (all mouth, jaw and throat muscles), the larynx (voice box) shuts off. This is physically impossible. The laryngeal function cannot be physically isolated from the rest of the muscles of speech. The larynx ceases to emit sound during the apparition -- except for one exception. In unison, during the apparition the alleged visionaries will be heard simultaneously praying, "Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name..." When asked, they report Mary is leading them in the Lord's Prayer.<br /><br />9) In summary, the unique aspects of the results of the scientific investigations point to the conclusion that nothing in the physical realm is allowed to interfere with the apparition experience. Scientific experts have defined the phenomena " as a state of active, intense prayer, partially disconnected from the external world, a state of contemplation with a separate person whom they alone can see, hear, and touch."<br /><br />I also provide a skeptics view of these tests below in the interests of balanced reporting (quoted directly from <a href="http://www.skepticwiki.org/">http://www.skepticwiki.org/</a> without change, except to spelling and grammar as the author is not a native English speaker).<br /><br />“The pages about the works of the three medical committees that studied the seers during the '80s and '90s have been realized by Dr. Marco Margnelli, who has been a member of two of them.<br /><br />Even not thinking that the results of the works of the three committees can prove, by themselves, anything paranormal in the physiology of the seers during their ecstasies/apparitions, I personally think that the results of the three committees are very interesting because they show that the seers, during the ecstasies, are in an altered physiological state that, from what I have learned from my researches on the field and from the discussions I had with other physiologists, can maybe not be fully understood using the currently available medical literature.<br /><br />I have done further research on the works of the three medical committees.<br /><br />Psychologist and skeptic Armando De Vincentiis analyzed some of the works of dr. Margnelli and dr. Gagliardi in his book " Estasi: Stimmate e altri fenomeni mistici " ("Ecstasy: Stigmata and other mystical phenomena" available only in Italian, Avverbi 1999, Rome, page 118).<br /><br />According to De Vincentiis, about the similarity between ecstatic state and hypnotic state, "the conclusions of the two authors [ Margnelli and Gagliardi ] present several weak points" ( " Estasi: Stimmate e altri fenomeni mistici ", Avverbi 1999, Rome, page 63 ).<br /><br />Moreover, author De Vincentiis suggests that we should reconsider the role of hysteria (a well-known psychopathology) in all mystical experiences (quoted work, pages 47 trough 49).<br /><br />I also spoke with a neurologist and skeptic friend of mine, member of the Italian CICAP. He, while acknowledging the importance of the works of Margnelli and Gagliardi, claims that the works of the committees do not prove that anything "paranormal" is happening with the seers.<br /><br />Willing to have some independent opinion on the works of the medical committees on the seers, I decided to pay two neurologists in my city to speak with me (I can not give the names of the two neurologists, due to privacy reasons).<br /><br />Both neurologists rejected the conclusion that the medical tests performed on the seers prove that anything paranormal is going on with the seers.<br /><br />The works of the first committee on the seers of Medjugorje (written in collaboration with Dr. Marco Margnelli)<br /><br />The first medical committee to study the seers of Medjugorje has been the one of professor Henri Joyeux of the Hospital of Montpellier and of Abbè Laurentin, with the help of doctors B. Hoarau, F. Rouquerol, J. Philippot, R. Volpilière and of Mrs. René Dubois-Chabert.<br /><br />The committee, during 1984, performed the following tests on some of the seers:<br />- Electroencephalogram ( EEG ) on Ivanka and Marija;<br />- Intermittent Luminous Stimulation during EEG, used in clinic neurology to test epilepsy, presumably performed on the same seers ;<br />- Electrocardiogram on Vicka, Marija and Ivan;<br />- Hearing test on Ivan, with prompt acoustic stimulation by a 90dB noise;<br />- other tests;<br /><br />The results of the above exams have been published in the following books:<br /><br />In English: Scientific and Medical Studies on the Apparitions at Medjugorje - R. Laurentin, H. Joyeux - ed Veritas, 1978<br /><br />In French: Études médicales et scientifiques sur les apparitions de Medjugorje - R. Laurentin, H. Joyeux - ed. François-Xavier de Guibert - Paris, 1986 In Italian: Studi medici e scientifici sulle apparizioni di Medjugorje - R. Laurentin, H. Joyeux - Queriniana - Brescia, 1985<br /><br />In conclusion, the committee states that (pages 65 and 66 of the French edition):<br /><br />1. The apparitions are neither dream nor hallucination;<br />2. Ecstasy appears as a state where ordinary physical perceptions are suspended;<br />3. Ecstasy is not pathological;<br />4. [ Ecstasy ] is an subjective perception. This perception is more real than the one from the ordinary world;<br />5. Ecstasy moves the visionaries into a timezone " sui generis ", that is, different from the timezone " of the wristwatches ";<br />6. Calling ecstasy with other labels ( hallucination, unconscious emerging, ..) means nothing and contradicts scientific objectivity;<br />7. The negative character of the exams during ecstasy and the coherent reactions of the seers prompt the hypothesis of a spiritual ( and real ) communication between person and person;<br />8. Catholic theology underlines the particular character of this phenomena.<br /><br />Among the facts which brought the committee to claim this conclusion, I chose those which appeared to me as the most significant:<br /><br />1) on page 21 of the French edition, there is written that, during a test performed on the seers by Dr. Maria Federica Magatti, " .. a motion-picture projector of about 1000 W [ of power ] was moved in the direction of the seers, without provoking any change in the diameter of their pupils [this means the abolition of the photo-motor reflex].. They blinked their eyes, as from natural and spontaneous reflexes ". I searched with Google and Yahoo! about Dr. M. F. Magatti on the web but could not find any result;<br /><br />2) on page 29 of the French edition, there is written that electroencephalogram performed on Ivan shows that " [ during ecstasy ] He does not sleep. He does not dream. He is in alpha rhythm: the rhythm of receptive wake, the rhythm of the contemplatives during the calmest moments ( when somebody acts or discusses he/she is in beta rhythm );<br /><br />3) on page 40 of the French edition, there is written that, about the exam on Ivan's hearing abilities, " during ecstasy, conductibility ( transmission of the nervous signal ) remains normal [ .. ] but Ivan is without reaction from a [ prompt ] 90dB noise ( the noise of a piston-engine at peak revs-per-minute condition [ .. ] He will tell us, after the ecstasy, that he did not hear anything ";<br /><br />4) on page 47 of the French edition, there is written that " .. [during ecstasy ] Ivan and Vicka do not blink their eyes".<br /><br />As far as I know, currently ecstasies of the seers usually last three to five-six minutes.<br /><br />To ask more information about these points ( some of them apparently contradict some of the conclusions stated above ) I contacted professor Joyeux.<br /><br />Professor Joyeux replied to me as follows:<br /><br />1) He never met Dr. Magatti personally and does not have her address;<br /><br />2) He confirmed to me the details about how the hearing test was performed on Ivan. The hearing test consisted of a prompt noise of 90 dB. I could not understand from Joyeux's reply if there is any further evidence that Ivan did not actually hear anything, according to Ivan's statements;<br /><br />3) He confirmed to me that Ivan and Vicka did not blink their eyes at all during the whole apparition, while they did blink their eyes soon before and after the apparition.<br /><br />The works of the second committee on the seers of Medjugorje (written in collaboration with Dr. Marco Margnelli)<br /><br />The second medical committee of study on the seers of Medjugorje was organized in 1985 by Luigi Frigerio and Giacomo Mattalia, M. D.s, and included: Prof. Giuseppe Bigi, Physiopatologist, University of Milan; Engineer Saverio Brighenti, Electronic Engineer; Dr.Giorgio Gagliardi, Cardiologist and Psychologist; Dr. Paolo Maestri, Othorinolaryngologist; Prof. Marco Margnelli, Neurophysiologist; Dr. Raffaele Pugliese, Doctor Surgeon; Prof. Maurizio Santini, Neuropsychopharmacologist, University of Milan.<br /><br />The Commission, during three episodes of ecstasy/apparition, was able to study three different seers:<br /><br /><br />1. visual evoked potentials (appraisal of the sight functionality );<br />2. acoustic evoked potentials (appraisal of the hearing functionality );<br />3. impedentiometry (appraisal of the functionality of the physical structures of reception of the sound in the middle ear);<br />4. corneal reflexology ( the reflex that closes the eyelids as a result of an external object touching the cornea);<br />5. pupil reflexology ( the reactions of the pupil in response to unexpected light or dark );<br />6. plethysmography (the flow of blood in the capillaries of the digital pulp);<br />7. respiratory function;<br />8. pain sensibility;<br />9. spontaneous and evoked electrodermal activity (appraisal of the sensory contact with the environment and the body).<br /><br />All these observations, wider and deeper than those of the French Committee, but complementary to them, concluded with certainty that:<br /><br />1) the seers of Medjugorje, during the apparitions, were in a state of consciousness corresponding to what the catholic mystical theology defines as “ecstasy”; that in this state, they had....<br />2) the complete loss of explored sensibility (blindness, deafness, dolorific anaesthesia, course and fine tactile anaesthesia);<br />3) the loss of contact with environment, and<br />4) very obvious sympathetic hyperactivity (cardiac, respiratory and emotional activation)<br /><br />The loss of the sensibility was demonstrated by the study of the visual and acoustic evoked potentials together with the study of evoked electrodermal activity (performed on Marija and Ivan). Both light flashes and clicks, even though provoking normal cortical reactions did not provoke any electrodermal reaction. That meant that during ecstasy, despite the optical and acoustic pathways working perfectly, the seers did not "see" the light flashes and did not “hear” the clicks. That is like saying (with a comparison comprehensible to all) that the microphone (the ear) and the cable that connected it with the amplifier (the acoustic nerve) worked perfectly (produced normal cortical potential). In the state of wakefulness, prompt and unexpected stimuli like these, provoke changes in the electrical activity of the skin called “psycho-galvanic reactions". This is a parameter very sensitive to any sensory stimulus coming from the environment.<br /><br />As an example, when a subject is comfortably relaxed with his eyes closed and a pencil is dropped or telephone is ringing, very strong psycho-galvanic reactions are created. These are called "alert responses" or "orientation responses". That clearly indicates that the brain of the subject, even though the eyes are closed, is very tuned in to what is happening in the environment. The fact that, in the seers, the flashes of light and the clicks in the caps did not provoke these reactions demonstrates that, in ecstasy, contact with the environment is lost. However, since the nerve signals arrive regularly in the cortex but are not felt (in the comparison with the microphone that was made before, that means that sounds collected from the microphone arrived regularly to the amplifier but they were not transformed into impulses to be sent to the loudspeakers), it has been deduced that the loss of sensibility was due to a temporary block of recognition and elaboration of the signals from the senses. Another useful metaphor that will help to understand this point is to compare the experimental condition of evoked potentials to a phone call: the experimenter “dials the number” (sets off the flash) on the phone; the phone (the eye) transmits the call; the calling starts and, along the cables of the telephone line (the optical nerves) gets to the receiving phone (the cerebral cortex) and then you have three possibilities:<br /><br />1) the called user raises the phone and answers (the brain is still in contact with the reality);<br />2) the receiving telephone answers with a signal of being busy (the brain, engaged in vision, cannot answer<br />3) the called telephone rings but nobody answers because the user “is somewhere else” (that it is what happened to the seers of Medjugorje).<br /><br />In the same functional condition was the tactile-cenestesic system, explored through the corneal reflexes, the psycho-galvanic reactions, the behavioural reactions and the dolorific system (explored through dolorific stimulations), the behavioural reactions and the psycho-galvanic reactions. We all know how very annoying a “small object” in an eye can be: not only does it annoy us but it also provokes rubbing of the eyes in an attempt to remove it(behavioural reactions), blinking (blink reflex), tearing (tearing reflex) and, without perceiving it, provokes numerous psycho-galvanic reactions in us. In Medjugorje, one of the investigators, during an ecstasy of Jakov, stimulated with a nylon hair (aesthesiometer of Cocher and Bonnet) an eye of the seer without provoking any of the three types of reactions. Insensibility to pain was demonstrated with dolorific stimuli provided by an instrument called an “ electronic algometer", which consists of a small silver piston (similar to the push-button of a ballpoint pen). When they wanted to test the subject's sensibility to pain, it was pressed on any point of the,skin so as to make it re-enter its lodging for long enough to activate a switch which heated it to approximately 50° C ( 122 °F ), a temperature moderately painful but not injurious in the short term. This stimulation made in a state of wakefulness, for example on one hand, provoked a behavioural reaction consisting of the withdrawal of the limb in about one quarter of a second (behavioral reflex reaction of defense). In ecstasy the small piston could be held on the limb for two to four seconds without any hint of withdrawal, and also, without any psychogalvanic reflex. This demonstrated that the subjects did not feel the pain.<br /><br />The passing of the psycho-galvanic reflexes or, as they are called today, of the “electrodermal responses” (Galvanic Skin Responses = GSR), has been demonstrated to be the most important index in order to not only estimate the degree of contact with the environment, but also with the body itself. In the seers of Medjugorje in ecstasy, these losses of contact and knowledge were complete, demonstrating that they were in a modified state of consciousness. The study of the reflexology of the pupils, the heart rate and the flow of blood in the capillaries of the digital pulp (plethysmography) has evidenced, little before and during the first seconds of ecstasy, a remarkable activation of the sympathetic excitatory system (orthosympathetic hyperactivity), a sign that has never been evidenced in the past, both from the doctors who have had any chance to make any semeiological survey (the study of the signs or symptoms of disease) on subjects in ecstasy (mostly in the eighteen hundreds), and from a theologian who had fixed the symptomatology of ecstasy in:<br /><br />1) alienation of the senses;<br />2) ecstatic rigidity and;<br />3) joyfully positive experience.<br /><br />Orthosympathetic hyperactivity, confirmed by following the researches on other subjects, allows us to pick the starting moment of ecstasy, to differentiate western ecstasies from those oriental (ecstasy of yoga = samadhi) and to hypothesize on the operation of the brain during ecstasy. A short time before ecstasy, for example in Jakov, heart rates of 150/170 beats per minute have been recorded (dangerous frequencies) that, in cardiac pathology, are known as “paroxysmal tachycardia” and require prompt therapy. Soon after the beginning of ecstasy, the heart activity came down drastically towards normality, so that the seer did not show any trace of this transient state of stress. Likewise sympathetic hyperactivity at levels of the micro circulation of the digital pulps was instead demonstrated by the nearly total disappearance of the capillary/arteriolar pulsations, a sign that indicates a vasoconscrictor response of comparable entity, again, to an intense state of stress. Finally, the diameter of the pupils during ecstasy increased (mydriasis) indicating an excitatory response of the sphincter of irides coherent with what in the cutaneous periphery provoked the closing of the precapillary arteriolae.<br /><br />Studies of the French Commission were designed mostly to exclude the possibility that the seers were simulating, that they were ill and, in particular, that they were either epileptic or hysterical. Beyond having excluded such possibilities, the tests allowed them also to conclude that ecstasy is not a pathological condition and is neither a dream state nor an hallucination. Considering that ecstasy is still considered by many as a pathological condition, a sub clinical condition of epileptic aura, a manifestation of hysteria, a manifestation of serious sexual problems or a state of psychotic dissociation, this conclusion has been very important.<br /><br />The works of the first Italian Commission have not only widely confirmed this conclusion and the most important data obtained by the French researchers, but they have considerably widened them (certainly strengthened them) so that the conclusion that ecstasy is not a symptom of disease must be considered the main fruit of these researches. It should signal a clear turn of attitude of neurosciences towards mystical phenomenology. However having demonstrated that the seers of Medjugorje were not neurologically sick, neither hysterical nor psychotic, does not prove that the Holy Lady truly appeared to them. If we do not assert that ecstasy itself is a manifestation of the supernatural, the reality of an apparition demands tests that go much beyond the demonstration of the mental health of those people in which it happens.<br /><br />The studies of the first Italian Committee were designed partly to understand the “nature” of the state of ecstasy or, in other words, to understand how the brain works in this state of consciousness. As an example: What are the mechanisms that allow the abolition of sensibility and, in particular, the abolition of pain? And, from this question, trying to answer the other one which follows: Do other physiological conditions (conditions of normality) exist, in which we find similar phenomena? And then afterwards, facing the remarkable amount of questions that derive from every one of the “signs” of the state of ecstasy, such as why sympathetic hyperactivity is being manifested, why electrodermal activity disappears, and so on. It could be said that investigation of the seers of Medjugorje have opened a new field in the scientific study of mystical phenomena. In order to continue to deepen these searches, Dr. Margnelli and Dr. Gagliardi founded, in 1987, the Centre of Studies and Researches on States of Consciousness Psychophysiology, in which they faced the most important problem in Medjugorje which is the difference between ecstasy and hypnosis.<br /><br />The works of the third committee on the seers of Medjugorje ( written in collaboration with Dr. Marco Margnelli )<br /><br />The Third medical committee of study on the seers of Medjugorje was formed by Dr. Giorgio Gagliardi and Father Andreas Resch on precise request of Father Slavko Barbaric who wished to eliminate any doubts, coming from more parts, on authenticity of the ecstasies/apparitions that were repeated daily for more than ten years. Scientifically, this control came as a precious occasion to repeat the observations of 1985, to deepen the psychiatric/personologic study on the seers and to lead experiments of hypnosis in ideal conditions. Researches have been executed on Marija Pavlovic, Ivan Dragicevic and, partially, on Ivanka Ivankovic, to whom currently the Virgin appears irregularly, at the " Casa Incontri Cristiani " of Capiago Intimiano (Como) during the month of April of 1998.<br /><br />Other observations have been made by Dr. Gagliardi in the months of July and November of the same year, in Medjugorje, on Mirjana Dragicevic-Soldo that had and has ecstasies/apparitions on the second day of each month and on every birthday and has been submitted to experiments of guided visualization to be able to compare the psychophysiology of such conditions with the one of the ecstasies/apparitions of the other seers.<br /><br />The Commission was composed by:<br /><br />Prof. Andreas Resch, Redemptorist priest, theologian and psychologist, director of Institut für Grenzgebeite der Wissenschaft - Innsbruck and professor of clinical psychology and paranormology at the Academia Alfonsina of the Pontificial Lateranensis University in Rome; Dr. Giorgio Gagliardi, physician, psychophysiologist and psychotherapist, vice-director of the Centre of Studies and Researches on States of Consciousness Psychophysiology - Milan, teacher at the Italian Medical Association for the Study of Hypnosis and European School of Hypnotic Psychotherapy - AMISI Milan and member of the Center for Parapsychological Studies ( C. S. P. ) - Bologna;<br /><br />Prof. Marco Margnelli, neurophysiologist, Director of the Centre of Studies and Researches on States of Consciousness Psychophysiology - Milan and teacher at the Italian Medical Association for the Study of Hypnosis and European School of Hypnotic Psychotherapy - AMISI Milan , President of the Italian Society for the Study of States of Consciousness, (SISSC), Pinerolo<br /><br />Dr. Fabio Alberghina, general practitioner - Valbrona ( CO ), Italy;<br /><br />Dr. Marianna Bolko, physician and psychoanalyst, teacher at the School of Specialization in Psychotherapy at the University of Bologna;<br /><br />Dr. Mario Cigada, physician and psychotherapist, specialised in ophthalmology, teacher at the Italian Medical Association for the Study of Hypnosis and European School of Hypnotic Psychotherapy - AMISI Milan;<br /><br />Dr. Rosanna Costantini, psychologist and teacher at the Pontificial Faculty of Educational Sciences " Auxilium " - Rome;<br /><br />Dr. Giovanni Li Rosi, physician and gynaecologist at the Central Hospital of Varese - Italy, expert in hypnosis;<br /><br />Dr. Daniela Lucini, M.D. and Ph.D., Research Center of Neurovegetative Therapy - University of Milan;<br /><br />Dr. Virginio Nava, physician and psychiatrist, former head physician at the Psychiatric Hospital in Como, Italy;<br /><br />Dr. Massimo Pagani, physician and professor of Medicine at the University of Milan and Director of the Center of Research on Neurovegetative Therapy, University of Milan;<br /><br />Dr. Gaetano Perricone, physician and specialist in internal medicine at the FBF Hospital - Erba ( CO );<br /><br />Dr. Luigi Ravagnati, physician and neurosurgeon, former assistant of neurosurgery at the University of Milan and teacher at the Italian Medical Association for the Study of Hypnosis and European School of Hypnotic Psychotherapy - AMISI Milan;<br /><br />Dr. Gabriella Raffaelli, secretary at the Centre of Studies and Researches on States of Consciousness Psychophysiology - Milan;<br /><br />Fiorella Gagliardi, former secretary at the Centre of Studies and Researches on States of Consciousness Psychophysiology.<br /><br />The researches consisted of:<br /><br />· Deep psychospiritual interviews;<br />· Psychological/psychodiagnostic/personologic inquiries (Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory, EPI, Middlesex Hospital Questionnaire, Test of the Tree, Test of the Person, Matrices of Raven, Test of Rorschach, Test of the hand, Valsecchi Test of truth and lie );<br />· Neurological visit; - Psychophysiological studies of the state of ecstasy by recording electrodermal activity, the pneumograms, the plethysmograms of a digit, the pupillar reflexes, by the dynamic recordings of electrocardiograms, arterial blood pressure and respirograms according with the Holter);<br />· Experiments of Hypnosis.<br /><br />The results of the research have been published in: “I Veggenti di Medjugorje. Ricerca Psicofisiologica 1998”, by A. Resch and G. Gagliardi, Resch Verlag, Innsbruck, 1999.<br /><br />The greater part of the work regarded the study of the state of mental health, the sincerity, of the personality and the psychospiritual attitude of the seers. Such studies, uniques by extension and depth in the history of the medicine and the religion, have confirmed that the three seers of Medjugorje studied in Capiago Intimiano and Mirjana Dragicevic-Soldo, studied in Medjugorje, were not hysteric, epileptic, psychologically weak and that they did not suffer from troubles of the sexuality, of the thought, of emotions and of the sociality. Psychophysiological studies, other than having confirmed good part of the results of the surveying of the Second Committee, of 1985, in this occasion has allowed an accurate verification, by the study of the ortho - parasympathetic equilibrium, of the increase of the neurovegetative excitatory tone before beginning of the ecstatic state, a characteristic of the Catholic Christian ecstasy that had not been identified in the past but that it has been revealed precious in order to establish the authenticity of an ecstasy.<br /><br />Of remarkable importance, finally, have been the experiments of hypnosis. The several hypotheses of researchers of the past and the studies executed at the Centre of Studies and Researches on States of Consciousness Psychophysiology - Milan ( results published in: “Le apparizioni della Madonna: da Lourdes a Medjugorje”, by M. Margnelli and G.Gagliardi, Riza Scienze, 1987 ) demonstrated remarkable likenesses between the state of ecstasy and the hypnotic trance. In particular, various signs of ecstasy, such as the partial or total abolition of the sensibility or the muscular rigidity, can be inducted, by means of opportune suggestions, on hypnotized subjects. It was (and it is) therefore, important to try to induce one state of ecstasy on subjects in hypnosis and to compare the psychophysiology of the two states: if ecstasy and hypnosis are equal, the psychophysiology that precedes the beginning of hypnotic ecstasy should be equal to the one of the beginning of natural ecstasy (increase of the ortho-sympathetic tone with lessening or disappearance of the arteriolar pulsations in the digital pulps, lessening or disappearance of the electrodermic responses to sensory stimuli, that is, of the orienting responses , fixed mydriasis with disappearance of the reflexes of the pupils to the light).<br /><br />In the previous experiments and partly in those executed in Capiago Intimiano, it has been tried to induce ecstasy“suggesting” to the seers the feelings that everyone of them declared to feel before entering ecstasy, such as heartthrob, gasping breath or intense emotion and then with sentences such as: “Now she is there, in front of you!” or: “You see her!”. With such method it has never been possible to induce one psychophysiology overlapping to the one which precedes spontaneous ecstasy and therefore, cautiously, it was concluded that, like theologians strongly assert, ecstasy and hypnosis are two states that have nothing to share between them. However, in one of the experiments of hypnosis lead on Marija, instead of by oral suggestions, it has been attempted to reproduce the experience that preceded the entrance in ecstasy making the seer listen, while in trance, the acoustic recording of the Rosary that she recited the day before waiting for the Apparition and, with great surprise of theinvestigators, part of the psychophysiology ( amplitude of the arteriolar pulsations of digital pulps ) turned out to be completely similar to those that precedes spontaneous ecstasy. Since other parameters (orienting responses, reflexology of the pupils, etc.) were not studied with sufficient extension, we do not have enough evidences in order to assert that mystical ecstasy is, in practical, one state of trance particularly deep, but the results invite to lead extended and accurate inquiries.<br /><br /><br />The Third Commission of study of the ecstasies/apparitions of Medjugorje, therefore, confirmed that:<br /><br />1) the seers enjoy optimal psychophysical health;<br />2) the seers do not simulate their experience;<br />3) that ecstasy is not a psychopathologic event and that after 18 years of daily apparitions it has not provoked any damage to the psychophysical health of the seers;<br />4) that the ecstasies/apparitions observed in Capiago Intimiano in the 1998 were characterized by the same psychophysiology observed in Medjugorje in 1985;<br />5) that such psychophysiology is the same that has been observed in other ecstatics/seers, therefore so that ecstasy is one state of conscience physiological and not pathological;<br />6) that, also having obtained with the experiments of hypnosis a result never obtained in the previous experiments (plethysmogram verysimilar to the one of spontaneous ecstasy), still we have no proof that ecstasies and hypnosis are the same thing.Paul Baylishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03608868311681288585noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37145732.post-1164485648740458982006-11-25T12:03:00.000-08:002006-11-25T16:30:02.163-08:00Brother v Brother - Medjugorje Objections Answered<span style="font-size:85%;">Excerpts from soon to be published book.<br />Copyright (c) Paul Baylis, marian-times.com. Comments are welcome, but unauthorised use of any material here is strictly forbidden and legal action will be taken if ignored. Please email </span><a href="mailto:mariantimes01@yahoo.com"><span style="font-size:85%;">mariantimes01@yahoo.com</span></a><span style="font-size:85%;"> with any comments or requests to use this text.</span> <hr /><br />Pope John Paul II called Medjugorje “The continuation and fulfillment of Fatima”. It is from this positive viewpoint of hope and unity from one of our most beloved pontiffs that we unfortunately must trace a downward spiral of controversy in order that we might unravel it and rise again to the purity of the Pope’s exclamation and move onwards with the blessing of the Vatican.<br /><br />There is much damage to Catholic hearts and minds, much division of thought, much angst and confusion, leading to disruption of peace, prayer and devotion, as certain quarters of the media, Catholic media no less, have taken it upon themselves in a misguided Indiana Jones style adventure, reminiscent indeed of the ancient witch hunts, to pre-empt an unlikely negative Vatican decision and do all they can to stain everything and everyone involved on the “Mary side” of Medjugorje, smothering its beauty, purity and power and leading souls away from salvation by the thousands. It is actually not a matter of Medjugorje per se. It is a matter of human souls.<br /><br />The troubles and controversies we see today within the Catholic Church over Medjugorje can be boiled down to political machination. Many pilgrims manage to completely avoid the controversy by the grace of God. For those involved in the controversy, either as participants or as observers, there is what borders on the biblical end-times prophesy of brother against brother.<br /><br />I first became aware of the controversies when I frequented an atheist website forum (“Internet Infidels” at IIDB.org) to “talk God” with some of the hard core atheists there, a very difficult task as most of them have fallen into a debating mentality where the goal is to win and argument and one-line and one-up your opponent into oblivion. My angle was that science doesn’t have the tools to prove that God exists yet and it could be a very long time before it does. Let us therefore look at other possible pointers to God, one being “miracles”. I brought up Medjugorje as an example, giving as much evidence as I could for its being worthy at least as a pointer to a possible God, and I urged the atheists to delve a little deeper and see if there was any truth in it. They obviously did go away and delve deeper and they came back to me with every kind of objection under the sun, which had originated from the Bishop of Mostar, Pavao Zanic, and which many others sections of the media had picked up on. While I never doubted the authenticity of the visions by virtue of a few human oddities and cults of personality, I set about looking deeper into the allegations. What I found was a long history of problems in the region concerning the relations between Franciscans and Diocesan clergy and this immediately cast doubt on the credibility of the main objector – Bishop Pavao Zanic. From there, I discovered little by little how a little twist of a statement here and there, or a slight leaning to one side of the truth, can make a big difference to how something appears.<br /><br />Bishop Zanic’s writings are certainly persuasive, but after looking at his experience as a negotiator for the Vatican during the infamous Herzegovinian Affair and his direct involvement in the removal of the Franciscans from their parishes after 1968 during the Mostar and Apeljina Affairs, it shouldn’t have surprised me.<br /><br />His persuasive arguments caused a few people to denounce Medjugorje. I hope those people eventually dug a little deeper, as I and others did, or simply managed to shrug off the objections, because there wouldn’t be a single objection by which one can say the apparitions at Medjugorje are false. There are many who read Bishop Zanic’s writings and felt doubts, but nevertheless went to Medjugorje to see for themselves and to talk personally to the visionaries and Franciscans. From this effort, they were able to get a much more balanced story. I highly recommend this to any person feeling further doubt after reading this book<br /><br />Medjugorje is the most significant apparition of second millennium, possibly ever in the history of the Catholic Church. Every Catholic has heard about it and every Catholic has been inspired by it. Not only Catholics, but Protestants, Hindus, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics and anyone else one cares to mention. Medjugorje is the dream scenario for those seeking lasting world peace and unity of mankind under one God. The apparitions continue today after 25 unbroken years, during which the Blessed Virgin Mary has appeared every single day.<br /><br />Names will be mentioned only when absolutely necessary because, despite my disappointment at the actions of some individuals and the damage that has been caused, I must believe that the Lord still loves them and will show kind patience towards them, something that I cannot presume not to do myself as I am nothing more than Christ’s servant, if indeed I am fortunate enough to be called His servant. Furthermore, the mention of names may be seen as a crown to be worn by those individuals, a situation which I certainly do not wish to encourage.<br /><br /><br />Father Jozo Zovko<br /><br />He was at first inclined to think that the six children were pulling a prank and indeed he chastised them for such. He expected the children to own up to their prank, but the children rather stuck to their story, firmly insisting that the "Gospa" had really appeared to them. Still not believing them, he knelt in the church of St. James alone one morning after Mass when he heard a Heavenly voice saying, "Protect the children." Then, almost immediately, the children came bolting into the rectory pursued by communist soldiers. His doubts by now completely dispelled, he immediately sought to provide sanctuary to the children, an act for which he paid a dear price. He was summoned to communist headquarters in Mostar where he was accused of provoking an uprising by spurring the children to fabricate stories of apparitions and by stirring up passion among parishioners against the communists – surely a suicidal move if true – and hardly the type of actions one would expect from a Catholic priest in a communist country.<br /><br /><br />Father Jozo has endured a great deal of injustice and persecution. Media have deliberately lied in what are very strange (to some, diabolically inspired) obsessions with destroying Medjugorje. There is also a culture, particularly in the USA, of intrigue and innuendo and and misplaced desire to uncover “corruption and injustice” simply for the sake of entertainment, ratings and book sales. We see a plethora of “Reality TV” shows cropping up together with a rampant tabloid media culture where ratings are king and everybody wants to read and hear the latest gossip.<br /><br />What is Father Jozo’s defense against all of this? "Father, forgive them. They know not what they do."<br /><br />Yes, forgiveness we ask for them, but we will also try to undo the damage done by them, not merely for the sake of justice, which is God’s to dispense, but for the sake of lost souls turned away from their possible conversion and salvation because of fallacious reports they have read and heard.<br /><br />Father Jozo is generally to be found each day, spending most of his time in front of the Tabernacle in prayer, pleading for God’s reputation to be upheld, not his own.<br /><br />Other persecuted Franciscans follow this same path - men like Father Svetozar Kraljivec, OFM, an extremely humble and holy priest who wished for his wartime heroic actions to remain unspoken and who would probably not approve of my mentioning him in this book. Then there is Father Ivan Landeka, OFM, who is the current pastor of St. James since Father Jozo’s transfer. Another is Father Slavko Barbaric, OFM, who was voted number forty-one in the “Top 100 Catholics of the Century”. Then there is Father Petar Ljubicic, OFM, who was selected by visionary Mirjana Dragicevic to be the one to receive and announce the ten secrets. Father Tomislav Vlasic, OFM, Father Ivan Dugandzic, OFM, Father Tomislav Pervan, OFM, now the Franciscan provincial, and Father Ljudevit Rupcic, OFM who we personally interviewed extensively along with Archbishop Frane Franic, the former Archbishop of Split, who was instrumental in the Vatican taking the matter of judging on the authenticity of the apparitions out of the Bishop of Mostar's hands.<br /><br />Unfortunately, there have also been Franciscan casualties. By all reports, father Philip Pavic, OFM has been transferred from Medjugorje at his request. We are not sure of his reasons, but it is possible that he became involved with some of his American countrymen’s detraction. He was affectionately known as the loveable ol' curmudgeon with a cynical streak. The cynicism appears to have finally given way to full renunciation, though we cannot be sure of the current status of Pavic. He was also outspoken on certain issues, including the book “Poem of the Man-God”, which many of the other Franciscans had no problem with, but which Father Pavich crusaded vociferously against. This book by Maria Valtorta is not on the Vatican index of banned publications. Our Lady said of this book “You may read it”. Possibly this statement went against Father Pavich’s own beliefs about the book and may have contributed among other things to his eventual departure.<br /><br />There is also the story of Father Ivica Vego, one of the priests persecuted by the Bishop of Mostar during the infamous Mostar Affair during which time the Franciscans were being bulldozed out of their parishes. Fathers Vego and Prusina were accused by the Bishop of Mostar of administering sacraments to the faithful of their ex-parishes who refused to receive the sacraments from the secular clergy who had taken over their parishes. Such was the depth of feeling and love the local parishioners had for the Franciscans. In this case, the Vatican decided in 1993 that Prusina and Vego were not guilty of any wrong-doing and, that in fact, it was the Bishop of Mostar’s actions that were reproachable against Cannon Law. However, Fr. Vego later left the Franciscan order as he had fallen in love with a nun and made a decision that the religious life was not his permanent vocation.<br /><br />Another of the objections to Medjugorje is the money-making aspect. Father Jozo’s opinion was asked regarding these criticisms. He winced but admitted “Our Lady is so pure that I would like the entrance to her shrine to be clean, with no shops at all. But I also understand that the people want to take something home, to remember their visit. This is something that happens in all famous places." Unfortunately, this is one aspect of pilgrimages that cannot be escaped, whether it be Guadalupe, Lourdes or Fatima, even the Vatican itself. Vendors are everywhere; and why not. If a converted pilgrim wants to buy a rosary or some prayer cards to begin their new life of devotion, what better place to buy one than at the place of their conversion.<br /><br />Father Jozo was also asked for this view on the fact that the apparitions had gone on for so long with no end in sight. He replied "A made-up story could not last this long. And it couldn't be satan's work. Satan doesn't call for prayer and conversion." Prayer and conversion are the main messages of Our Lady and that is all this humble and charismatic priest cares to promote and his reward is counted purely in converted souls.<br /><br />The Bishops of Mostar<br /><br />Pavao Žanić<br /><br />His appointment as Bishop of Mostar came on September 14, 1980 in the middle of the Herzegovina Affair during which the Franciscans were attempting to negotiate the terms of the handover of parishes after the Decree Romanis Pontificibus was passed by the Holy See, ordering the handover of Franciscan parishes to the Diocesans. At the time, the Franciscans were never against any handover, but felt they were being steamrolled and that the Holy See was blissfully ignorant to the trickery employed by the Diocesans to essentially dupe the Holy See into agreeing to the wholesale handovers in the first place, and likewise to the heavy-handed way the Diocesan side were attempting to exercise the decree. They felt unable to communicate their concerns and were not even sure if their letters of objection were getting through to the Holy See.<br /><br />One year before the apparitions began, Bishop Žanić took the helm at Mostar and immediately announced at his inauguration that he was going to establish a cathedral parish in Mostar and that he was going to carve up the Franciscan monastic parish so that four-fifths of the faithful would belong to the cathedral parish and one-fifth to the Franciscan monastic parish. His explanation for this decision was that the Franciscans had agreed. This immediately caused a negative reaction amongst the faithful in the church because it was precisely this type of statement by which Zanic’s predecessors duped the Vatican in agreeing to the draconian handovers in the first place; and the continuing presumptuousness of the succeeding Bishop was too hard to stomach for many.<br /><br />When the parish priest of the Franciscan monastic parish cautioned the Bishop, while still in the church, that his explanation that the Franciscan had agreed to this was not the truth, the Bishop withdrew any jurisdiction and Cannon mission away from the parish priest with effect in the entire diocese. “Heavy-handed” was beginning to sound like an understatement and it looked ominous for the Franciscans and their faithful parishioners.<br /><br />At the time of the first apparitions in 1981, Bishop Žanić was reported to have wept for joy and rushed to visit the Franciscan-run parish to speak to the priest and the six children. He is also recorded as saying, in a sermon given on the feast of St. Jakov, the patron saint of Medjugorje, on the 25th of July 1981:<br /><br />"I am deeply convinced that no child who says that they have seen Our Lady has been talked into doing so. If we were speaking about one child only, one might say he could be stubborn and that not even the police could make the child renounce what he said. But six innocent, simple children in the space of half an hour, would, if they were pushed, admit all. None of the priests, I guarantee, had any idea of putting the children up to something.... I am also convinced that the children are not lying. The children are only speaking out what's in their hearts.....It is certain: the children are not lying"<br /><br />In Glas Koncila, the Croatian national catholic newspaper, 16th of August, 1981, he stated:<br />"It is definite that the children were not incited by anyone, and especially not by the church, to lie."<br /><br />It is also reported that Bishop Žanić even encouraged the doubting Father Jozo Zovko to believe, calling on him and his colleague Fr. Zrinko Cuvalo to be more decided and to recognize God’s deeds around them. Zovko and Cuvalo told Žanić that there was no need to hurry and expressed their opinion that it would be better to wait and see what developed.<br /><br />As pilgrims began arriving in Medjugorje by the thousand from all over Yugoslavia, the Communist authorities cracked down. It is known that the communist secret police summoned Bishop Žanić to Sarajevo where pressure was put on him to renounce the alleged apparitions. At first, he refused and in August 1981 published a declaration of support in the main Catholic newspaper. However, he began to speak less and less about the apparitions and, after a period of silence he joined in challenging what was happening and eventually became the staunchest opponent of the shrine and of the rapidly developing pilgrimage industry.<br /><br />Fr. Zovko, on the other hand, began to believe more and more in the supernatural origins of the apparitions, which we know was as a direct result of the message he received to “protect the children” while kneeling alone in prayer in St James’ Church in Medjugorje, trying to make sense of what was happening. He willingly went to jail rather than renounce his absolute conviction in the authenticity of the apparitions.<br /><br />After Bishop Žanić had begun his vocal anti-Medjugorje campaign, an official memorandum of the Vatican State secretary office (no.:150.458) on the 1st of April 1985, from Cardinal Casaroli, charged Croatian Cardinal Franjo Kuharic with the task of conveying to Bishop Žanić that he should "suspend the airing of his own personal statements and renounce making judgements, until such time as all the elements could be conclusively gathered together, and the happenings could be clarified". This was because bishop Zanic's statement, which began "the actual position.....", had had considerable reverberations in the press. In fact, even till today, detractors from all over the world are confusing the faithful and dissuading them from going to Medjugorje by equating the opinions of the Bishop of Mostar with the official position of the Church. Unfortunately this request from Cardinal Casaroli did not appear to have made much impression on the Bishop and his rampant crusade went relatively unchecked.<br /><br />THE OBJECTIONS<br /><br />Objections first began with the Bishop of Mostar, Pavao Zanic. As mentioned earlier, Bishop Zanic was ready to pronounce the visions authentic while Father Jozo Zovko was still highly doubtful and preferred the “wait and see” approach. Then we have seen that, after being hauled in for questioning by the communist secret police. Zanic is believed to have told Father Jozo that he was not ready to go to prison for Medjugorje. Father Jozo, on the other hand, had no such qualms about going to prison for his beliefs. Zanic suddenly became less vocal in his support, then went very quiet, then came out with all guns blazing against Medjugorje.<br /><br />Bishop Zanic eventually came out with a long list of objections he had against Medjugorje. The Western media picked up on the objections, and once that happens, it’s almost “goodnight nurse”. Every maverick crime-busting journalist in the USA worked overtime taking this and that statement out of context, making fantastical connections to all kinds of illicit things, even Nazism and ethnic cleansing and generally making a hash out of the whole affair.<br /><br />We know that the Bishop’s investigations were, as a result of his newly found anti-Medjugorje position, very unsatisfactory, so much so that eventually the then Cardinal Ratzinger took the matter from his hands and handed it to the Yugoslav Bishops Conference.<br /><br />Furthermore, during the course of his initial investigations, Bishop Zanic heard from the visionaries that the Virgin has spoken against him, accusing him of being responsible for the disorder in Herzegovina. This must have been a key moment for Zanic and he would not have liked hearing this. But to observers, the stories of the Herzegovinian, Mostar and Apaljina Affairs cannot help but bear out the Virgin’s accusations. It is well-known that Bishop Zanic’s attitude, approach and selective obedience during these “affairs” left a lot to be desired. Below is an extract from “The Truth About the Herzegovinian Affair” by Viktor Nuiæ, OFM, Dr.<br /><br /><br /><em><blockquote><em>The Herzegovinian bishops often stressed obedience as the supreme principle of conduct within the Church. In practise however, they themselves at times, did not adhere to this principle but rather when it suited them. When Bishop Zanic,<br />for instance, came to Mostar as the Assistant Bishop he immediately embarked on convincing the Herzegovinian Franciscans to disobey their lawful Provincial Šili, with the intention of better achieving his aims. He did not succeed in this. When he took over the diocese that is in 1988, a group of Franciscans did not accept transfers, which had been assigned them by the Provincial administration. Bishop Zanic backed them up in their refusal. He even forbid in writing that they be transferred! They who were disobedient were allowed to keep<br />their jurisdiction and Canon mission yet he refused to issue these to those who were lawfully, pursuant to decision of the Provincial administration, to succeed them. This same practise was continued by the bishop's successor, Bishop Ratko Peric.<br />The Herzegovinian bishops demanded that the Franciscans hand over parishes which belonged to them in accordance with the Decrees of 1967 and 1975, yet he continually refused to take over the parishes of Glavatievo and Nevesinje, which were assigned to him in the Decree of 1923, and which the<br />Franciscans had been offering for quite a while. The bishops were not prepared to implement the Decree of 1975 in its literal sense. The Franciscans offered Bishop ani that upon carving up the monastic Franciscan parish in Humac he found new secular parishes in Zvirii-Bijaa and Crveni Grm as determined in the Decree of 1975. Nevertheless he refused this and demanded that the heart of this same parish - Ljubuški and Radišii and that he be allowed to found a new secular parish in these towns even though this is the one thing that was explicitly<br />forbidden in the 1975 Decree! Bishop Peric at all costs demanded that he be given Mostar and apljina yet he refused to take over the parishes in Jablanica and Blagaj which had been virtually completely ethnically cleansed by the Muslims but which nevertheless were to belong to him in accordance to the same Decree of 1975!<br />These few examples clearly show that the Herzegovinian bishops are not exactly marked by uncompromising obedience to decisions adopted by the Holy See even though they demand this same obedience of the Franciscans.</em></blockquote></em><br /><br /><p>The 1991 Zadar Declaration, which stated “On the basis of the investigations so far it cannot be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations”. The upshot of the Zadar Declaration is essentially the following:</p><ol><li>The Zadar Declaration is and remains the only official declaration of the Church on the events of Medjugorje.</li><li>All subsequent declarations of the Holy See refer to this Declaration.<br />The position of Mgr Ratko Peric, Bishop of Mostar, has to be understood as merely his personal conviction and not the position of the Church.</li><li>The final judgment on the supernaturality of the apparitions and revelations remains open. The events are still happening and have to be examined by the Church.</li><li>The “especially suitable liturgical-pastoral directives” envisaged by the Declaration of Zadar have been given.</li><li>The envisaged new Commission has begun in November 2006</li><li>Private pilgrimages to Medjugorje are allowed under condition that they are not considered as the recognition of the events which are still occurring, and which demand to be examined by the Church. </li><li>The Church does not forbid priests to accompany these pilgrimages.<br /></li></ol><p>So, the Church has officially spoken, and there is not a Catholic Medjugorje supporter that has any serious problem with this declaration, assuming it is not somehow twisted by the media into a statement that the church “disapproves” of the apparitions or that there are no apparitions happening in Medjugorje. Indeed, headlines appeared to this affect all over the world after the release of the Zadar Declaration, causing a great deal of damage.<br /><br />It is standard procedure for the Holy See to be cautious especially as the visions are still ongoing, making it highly unusual for a positive pronouncement to be made, even if everything looks perfectly genuine. It is wise and sufficient and Medjugorje supporters can freely travel to, and worship at, Medjugorje. Everybody should be happy.<br /></p><p>So, why on earth can detractors not adopt the same attitude and just wait for the final pronouncement, just as the Holy See warned Bishop Zanic to do? The answer is in the media’s itchy trigger finger. There is money to be made from intrigue; there is kudos to be received by exposing a fraud or a scam; there is narcissism in a self-image based on a Hollywood maverick, crime-busting Indian Jones-esque personality. The public are nourishing themselves on a diet of reality TV, gossip shows and internet blogs and they demand satiation, a demand that some quarters of the media are only to happy to fill, something that Bishop Zanic would have been pleased with as he attempted to make his noises heard to the ends of the earth. </p><p>The objections of Bishop Zanic, Ratko Peric, E Michael Jones and others are answered in separate blogs on this website.</p><p></p>Paul Baylishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03608868311681288585noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37145732.post-1162724870363011572006-11-05T02:31:00.000-08:002006-11-05T03:12:10.616-08:00Western Media's "Foot in Mouth" DiseaseThe media breeds a certain type of ferrety person, all eyes and ears waiting to pounce on any juicy story, or at least whatever can be turned into a juicy story.<br /><br />American media and Yugoslavian events have not mixed well however in the past decades, at least from the standpoint of the Catholic Church.<br /><br />During WWII Yugoslovia, The Yugoslavian Communist Party heirarchy perceived the Catholic church as its arch-nemesis and sought to control it. Co-operation from the Church was not forthcoming and the communists set about a campaign of systematic persecution of the clergy. In one such campaign, Yugoslav forces entered the Franciscan Monastery of Siroki Brijeg and set alight fourteen friars after dousing them with petrol. And only 88 priests of Senji's dioceses survived of 151 that were there before the war. Half of the parishes were left with no clergy.<br /><br />Whoever was not murdered was intimidated into leaving. The communists' hope was that by destroying the shepherds, the flocks would be scattered.<br /><br />But the biggest thorn in the Communist side was the Bishop of Zagreb, Alojzije Stepinac. A smear campaign surfaced against him, but this had little effect in Croatia. Unfortunately, the American press bought the charges hook, line and sinker and published them as truth. Without a shred of evidence that Stepinac was a collaborator, he was painted as a fascist by propogandists.<br /><br />And the half-truths and lies about his role in WWII Croatia resurfaced just prior to his beatification, when an intensive negative media campaign, including the Catholic press in the US were hard at work selling sensationalism.<br /><br />Milovan Diljas, then in the communist hierarchy, admitted in his book: "He would certainly not have been brought to trial for his conduct in the war...had he not continued to oppose the new Communist regime."<br /><br />The latest media tragedies are occurring around Medjugorje, where things have gotten very much out of hand and the US and western media are not only grasping for stories, but creating them from nothing. In an appalling case, the Wanderer publication has been exposed. After filming an anti-medjugorje film with E Michael Jones and other cohorts, the director and producer of that film, the cameraman, the journalists testify publicly that everything editor Paul Likoudis reported was false.<br /><br />Denis Nolan of childrenofmedjugorje.com responded "It was all part of a deliberate campaign to destroy Medjugorje! And Likoudis has the audacity continuing this campaign in the November 14, 2002 The Wanderer! This is criminal. He and the Wanderer should be held accountable! There never were any death threats made by the Franciscans of Medjugorje against Jones (E. Michael Jones from Culture Wars) and others. There never was a pedophile ring of Franciscans in Medjugorje! The story that was kept alive for two years in the Muslim newsdaily, "The Feril Tribune," - that all money given by pilgrims to the Franciscans in Medjugorje during the war, for refugee aid, was instead used by them for ethnic cleansing of Muslims - was entirely false!"<br /><br />Media can be very damaging when mixed with a highly political climate. The damage in this case is to souls searching for God. They read about the Medjugorje phenomenon and are drawn there......until some media Freddy Kruger comes along and gets em!Paul Baylishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03608868311681288585noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37145732.post-1162677312477052962006-11-04T13:48:00.000-08:002006-11-04T13:57:31.476-08:00Why Atheists Don't BelieveA reply to Austin Cline's Article at: <a href="http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutatheism/p/whynotbelieve.htm">http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutatheism/p/whynotbelieve.htm</a><br />In this article, Austin Cline reels off a few of the main reasons he thinks atheists would respond to the question "Why don't you believe?"<br /><br />[Austin]<br />Multiple Gods and Religious Traditions: It is difficult to credit any one religion as being True or any one god as being True when there have been so many throughout human history. None appears to have any greater claim to being more credible or reliable than any other. Why Christianity and not Judaism? Why Islam and not Hinduism? Why monotheism and not polytheism? Every position has had its defenders, all as ardent as those in other traditions. They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong.<br /><br />[Marian Times]<br />Forget about religion, which is purely man's forum for worship. Look at the bigger picture. The issue is whether God exists in the first place. Pretend we're in the Garden of Eden. From the perspective of Christian religions, confusion even existed so soon after Christ's ascension into Heaven, when Peter and Paul couldn't agree on whether gentiles should be allowed to have access to God. What chance do WE have to get it 100% right these days?<br /><br />[Austin]<br />Contradictory Characteristics in Gods: Theists often claim that their gods are perfect beings; they describe gods, however, in contradictory and incoherent ways. Numerous characteristics are attributed to their gods, some of which are impossible and some combinations of which are impossible. As described, it's unlikely or impossible for these gods to exist. This doesn't mean that no god could possibly exist, just that the ones theists claim to believe in don't.<br /><br />[Marian Times]<br />See above. The ways we describe God cannot be perfect until we see and know God perfectly. This is not enough reason by anybody's standards to not believe in a god.<br /><br />[Austin]<br />Religion in Self-Contradictory: No religion is perfectly consistent when it comes to doctrines, ideas, and history. Every ideology, philosophy, and cultural tradition has inconsistencies and contradictions, so this shouldn't be surprising — but other ideologies and traditions aren't alleged to be divinely created or divinely sanctioned systems for following the wishes of a god. The state of religion in the world today is more consistent with the premise that they are man-made institutions.<br /><br />[Marian Times]<br />See above. Confusion between religions and ideologies have existed since the beginning. As with all the above arguments, this objection is similar to an argument which posits throwing the baby out with the bath water.<br /><br />[Austin]<br />Gods Are Too Similar to Believers: A few cultures, like ancient Greece, have postulated gods which appear to be as natural as human beings, but in general gods are supernatural. This means that they are fundamentally different from human beings or anything on earth. Despite this, however, theists consistently describe their gods in ways that make the supernatural appear almost mundane. Gods share so many characteristics with humans that it has been argued that gods were made in the image of man.<br /><br />[Marian Times]<br />See all of the above!<br /><br />[Austin]<br />Gods Just Don't Matter: Theism means believing in the existence of at least one god, not that one necessarily cares much about any gods. In practice, though, theists typically place a great deal of importance on their god and insist that it and what it wants are the most important things a person can be concerned with. Depending upon the nature of a god, however, this isn't necessarily true. It's not obvious that the existence or desires of gods should matter to us.<br /><br />[Marian Times]<br />This is probably closer to the truth as a reason for unbelief. It would be interesting to get a demographic on atheists, but I dare to suggest that most atheists are feeling comfortable with the idea of material life being sufficient as the means to achieving all their innermost needs and desires, feeling no need for anything deeper than the basic human functions and goals - work, sex, money, lifestyle, power, peer recognition, etc. Driven by this energy to extract from the material life what they feel will give them the most satisfaction, they likely wouldn't feel any need (or have the time) to explore any possible spiritual side to their existence. How many comfortable atheists have felt the need, for example, to learn about the events at Fatima or Medjugorje, where miracles seem to attest to there actually being a God. That's just one example. There's a lot out there to explore in the way of the supernatural. But atheists just don't manage to find the time....until something happens in their lives, or until their list of things they thought would provide genuine lasting satisfaction gets shorter and shorter as they get older and wiser.<br /><br />[Austin]<br />Gods and Believers Behave Immorally: In most religions, gods are supposed to be the source of all morality. For most believers, their religion represents an institution for promoting perfect morality. In reality, though, religions are responsible for widespread immorality and gods have characteristics or histories which make them worse than the most vile human serial killer. No one would tolerate such behavior on the part of a person, but when with a god it all becomes laudable — even an example to follow.<br /><br />[Marian Times]<br />I can't understand the logic here. We need backup for these statements that God or believers are not moral. We have to allow for some human weakness within organisations, so I hope the writer isn't feeling tempted to get the tar brush out.<br /><br />[Austin]<br />Evil in the World: Closely associated with taking action that should be considered immoral is the fact that there is so much evil in the world today. If there are any gods, why don't they act to eliminate it? The absence of substantive action against evil would be consistent with the existence of evil or at least indifferent gods, which is not impossible, but few people believe in such gods. Most claim that their gods are loving and powerful; the suffering on Earth, makes their existence implausible.<br /><br />[Marian Times]<br />Evil in the world is the result of man's actions, not God's. God imbued man with a basic sense of right and wrong. Atheists like to point out, in their defence against needing a set of rules provided by a deity, that they basically know what is right and wrong. The evil is as a result of man's disobedience to his own conscience. Furthermore, the situation may be more complicated than the simplification that God should automatically create a heaven-on-earth scenario. Many believers take the view that we are here for the short-term compared to our eternal afterlife. How we react to the evil in the world, whether we help cause it, what type of an influence we are in the midst of it, all contribute to how we spend eternity. Thus, evil, though undesirable in itself (though we should note that certain people thrive on chaos and evil), can be a mode for good. Take the "evil" of famine. How many people contribute to charities that help alleviate famine? If every well-off person contributed something, if governments ceased corruption and self-serving, famine could be alleviated if not eliminated.<br /><br />[Austin]<br />Faith is Unreliable: A common characteristic of both theism and religion is their reliance on faith: belief in the existence of god and in the truth of religious doctrines is neither founded upon nor defended by logic, reason, evidence, or science. Instead, people are supposed to have faith — a position they wouldn’t consciously adopt with just about any other issue. Faith, though, is an unreliable guide to reality or means for acquiring knowledge.<br /><br />[Marian Times]<br />Faith in God takes account of a possible afterlife. We have very good reason to suspect that we will still exist in spirit after we physically die. Most believers have this possibility foremost in their minds. It is isn't a matter of whether faith helps us gain more knowledge. There are already enough day-to-day things to learn, such as how to love our neighbours and be better citizens, not to mention our educational and professional learning requirements. Faith simply takes account of a perceived likehood that when we die we will face a supreme being who will demand an account of our earthly existence. This has been borne out, for example, by the many high-profile near-death experiences. And there are other pointers to an eternal afterlife. At its worst, faith is an insurance policy. At its best, faith is a way to come close to our creator and become better human beings in the process. Faith is for people who question life's purpose, who doubt that we can just "exist" and then become plant fertilizer. I would go so far as to say that Faith is for the true free-thinkers, those who allow themselves to believe they will live on in spirit, those who see science in its place - a discoverer of the greatness of the Creator, and whose level of thought is not limited to the progress science may have made thus far in this discovery.<br /><br />[Austin]<br />Life is Material, not Supernatural: Most religions say that life is much more than the flesh and matter we see around us. In addition, there is supposed to be some sort of spiritual or supernatural realm behind it all and that our "true selves" is spiritual, not material. All evidence, though, points to life being a purely natural phenomenon. All evidence indicates that who we really our — our selves — is material and dependent upon the workings of the brain. If this is so, religious and theistic doctrines are wrong.<br /><br />[Marian Times]<br />What we see with our eyes is certainly material but not the less incredible for this physical aspect, as science is discovering and, in the process, beginning to show more tendency to believe could not be as a result of the chance nature of evolution. Besides, as stated above, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence pointing to there being a spiritual realm. The writer perhaps has not felt the need to study, for example, the phenomenon of Marian apparitions, so prevalent in these times. There are plenty of areas of study the writer can delve into. Why not take a closer look at paranormal phenomenon if this is a more desirable starting point than religious phenomenon per se. This presupposes, however, that he doesn't fall into the category of the "comfortable, can't be bothered, don't see the need" atheist.<br /><br />[Austin]<br />There is No Good Reason to Bother Believing: Perhaps the most important and common reason for not believing in any gods and for not following any religions is the absence of any good reason for doing so. All of the above are decent reasons for not believing and are common reasons for questioning — and eventually leaving — whatever theistic and religious beliefs a person might have had in the past. Once a person gets beyond the bias in favor of belief, though, they can realize something critical: the burden of support lies with those claiming that belief is rational and/or necessary. Believers fail to meet this burden, however, and as a consequence fail to provide any really good reasons to accept their claims. As a consequence, those who don't already believe and/or who are not biased in favor of belief aren't given a reason to start.<br />Given the fact that the burden of support lies first and foremost with those making the positive the claim — the theistic, religious believers — then non-believers don't necessarily need reasons not to believe. They are helpful, to be sure, but they aren't particularly necessary. Instead, what is required are reasons to believe.<br />The question "Why don't you believe?" is a request for justification from the nonbeliever; the response "I haven't seen any good reason to bother believing" returns the need for justification back to the believer where it belongs. Too often, believers fail to realize that their position is the one which needs defending and perhaps this can help them begin to understand that.<br /><br />[Marian Times]<br />As stated above, there is quite compelling anecdotal evidence, for example through near death experiences, for an afterlife where it is suggested that we will undergo some form of "life review". Believers are sober and thoughtful enough to realise the difference between 70 years of earthly life and a possible ETERNITY of spiritual life.<br />I'm not saying necessarily that atheists are shallow, but I feel that atheists who see no reason to believe simply haven''t stretched their minds, studies and observations far enough in the spiritual direction to find and analyse quite good possible reasons (and by analyse, I mean by themselves with their own minds, not just leap on the first excuse to not believe that they might find in a detraction article on infidels.org). Possible reasons to look further into include a huge number of testimonies, theories and events. There are plenty that are apparently credible enough to demand a closer look, at least in order to rule them out once and for all.<br />Blindness and ignorance to what is out there, coupled with a comfortable conviction that the physical realm will satisfy all needs and desires are the reason why the comfortable atheists say that they find no reason to believe in God.<br />I'm not saying that atheists are slovenly in their studies as it is true that many excel in the field of science. However, if many had studied enough, they would note the more than distinct possibility that the universe was indeed created by a supreme being; at least it is a strong argument that it is more credible that the universe had a creator than the universe did NOT.<br />So, the question "Why don't you believe?" presupposes that the atheist is open enough and has least enough energy to study what evidence IS ACTUALLY OUT THERE to support the existence of God. Anyone who refuses to do this and who instead prefers to embrace the first opportunity to shift the burden of proof isn't even worth asking "Why don't you believe?". These types of people just need to be left alone to get older and wiser. Right now, they don't care and they feel they don't need to care.Paul Baylishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03608868311681288585noreply@blogger.com5